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Can I get my name changed to Warp654908376827 please?
Kidding...
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CoolKirby wrote:
I also support the idea of movie flags and think that icon is perfect. That would go up next to the Vault/Moon/Star logo for each movie, right?
Only for branches that are really known to be fastest possible. Like Megaman X2 100%. It's faster than any lower amount of items. But things like Speedy Gonzales 100% would not get the flag, since there's a faster branch. Or if you asked about placing, then it will be right where all the other flags are.
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Using the Contra 3 example:
SNES Contra 3: The Alien Wars (USA) "pacifist" - differs from any other (existing and possible) branch by being pacifist.
SNES Contra 3: The Alien Wars (USA) "game end glitch" - differs from them by skipping to end.
But how to call SNES Contra 3: The Alien Wars (USA) "no warp glitch", since it's just a regular completion, neither glitchy nor pacifist? If there is a 1-player run some day, it would be clear: call them 1 player and 2 players. But what to do now? Maybe 1 player never works out. Maybe REALLY leave it blank, and all the similar ones?
Even Super Metroid runs
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "no X-Ray glitch" and
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "no X-Ray glitch, ingame time"
ask for some fix. But they are also "no game end glitch" and "no GT code" as well as "no X-Ray glitch", which would make it sound imbecile altogether.
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "no X-Ray glitch, no game end glitch, no GT code, ingame time" in 39:15.3 by Saturn.
Hahahahahahaha!
While making them
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) in 38:41.52 by Taco & Kriole
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "ingame time" in 39:15.3 by Saturn
sounds the most mature and sane. Because really, they do nothing exceptional from all the other branches. They just beat it.
And for speed record geeks, we would flag the "GT code, game end glitch" branch, since GT code was suddenly considered legit.
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Inzult wrote:
I can only really speak to Zelda 2, the only game on that list I'm familiar enough with to understand what exactly is going on.
The way it is now, with the short run being unnamed and the long run being tagged as something that doesn't use every technique known is fine and makes a lot of sense in this case, I think.
I personally preferred "glitched" and unnamed because it was vague enough that we could use common sense to decide what to include in which run without having to explicitly define everything. Viewers can look at these two runs and see that, yeah okay, even though both of these use an any% route, one's obviously not as close to what zelda 2 usually looks like as the other.
If you want vague names for both and rely on the movie description to explain what's happening "glitched" and "no oob" or something along those lines is fine.
If you want more specific names, "uses l+r acceleration, wrong warps" and "no l+r acceleration or wrong warps" is good. I've come to prefer wrong warps to unintended exits, even though neither name perfectly describes what's going on I think WW is a more familiar kind of name for people.
"No l+r, no healer glitch, no fairy glitch, no scroll lock" is technically exactly what's intentionally left out of the longer run, but that's getting a bit wordy.
Additionally, unnamed and "avoids game-breaking glitches" with the movie description explaining what those are is sufficient as well.
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Warp wrote:
So the consensus is that the branch name should define the techniques/methods/glitches/routes used to complete the game (which is basically the opposite of what I suggested)?
I envision this causing obsoletion problems (which is one of the reasons why I think that the branch name should not fix any of the techniques used.) If a new run is submitted that uses a different set of the techniques than the old one used, should the branch name be changed or a new branch created?
This could be avoided if the branches, at least the "major" ones, are named in a more abstract manner, ie. in a manner that does not fix how the game was completed.
If you want to get rid of the "nameless branch" idea because the concept of a "default" TAS for a game is too controversial, that's not really the major problem IMO. I was just thinking that it would be nice if there were some kind of "special mark" for the "official speed record" branch, which could aid people in finding it. "This game can be completed in 23:15 using tool-assistance." If there are 10 branches, one of them ought to be the official speed record. It would be useful to mark is as such.
I think it's not possible to get rid of the fastest branch (reasons in the previous post). As for "techniques/methods/glitches/routes", it doesn't need to be as specific as Nach said. Instead check out what I was trying to do.
Warp wrote:
I was just thinking that it would be nice if there were some kind of "special mark" for the "official speed record" branch, which could aid people in finding it. "This game can be completed in 23:15 using tool-assistance." If there are 10 branches, one of them ought to be the official speed record. It would be useful to mark is as such.
That's what I suggest here and on IRC. At least a few more people agreed with the movie flag idea.
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Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
SM with X-ray glitch would be "X-Ray" or "X-Ray glitch"? X-ray can be used without glitching.
According to rule 1, X-Ray is most certainly not descriptive enough as you pointed out. The latter may also not be if there's more than one kind of X-ray glitch. So perhaps it should be something along the lines of X-ray bound breaking
As long as X-Ray glitch is complicated in its results, and quite similar to Crash Bandicoot 2's box glitch in that, and neither skips to ending, their meaning can be put into movie description, and the label be "X-Ray glitch" and "box glitch", telling it's still a game-breaking glitch by its wording.
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Agreed with only 2 kinds of options for ACE.
Possible names for not completing the game:
- demonstration
- payload
- playaround
For completing the game, it's either "game end" or "some other skip".
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amaurea wrote:
(But I'm confused about "Arbitrary Code - Level ending". Why would you just end the level when you have the power to do anything you want?)
Battletoads apply both uses of memory corruption: skipping to game and, and skipping to the next level once. Both are Moons and different enough. Neither is arbitrary code though.
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What if "Game ending" doesn't use "Arbitrary code"? Make it just "game ending"? Or maybe "game end glitch" or something?
SM with X-ray glitch would be "X-Ray" or "X-Ray glitch"? X-ray can be used without glitching.
How about using a movie flag to mark what was previously marked by dropping the label, a "fastest category" flag?
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Warp wrote:
What I wrote has absolutely nothing to do with tiers. I don't even understand why you think it does.
Half of the voters apply the old approach, that we have put on Judge Guidelines about branching. Fastest completion is so obviously the default and the main goal of TASes that it needs no label. Right?
That approach leads to contradiction between the 2 groups of people, because another half of them thinks this goal is not so obvious and not main. They feel main goal is to beat the game without game-breaking glitches, and want to have this branch blank.
As Radiant said, none of the options can be now applied the hard way, since either of them disappoints half of the people.
Then, either none of these 2 branches should have labels (which is hilarious but wrong), or both. So my suggestion is basing all the taxonomy not on conclusion that "fastest by all means is default and obvious" (that half the crowd disagrees with), but on "each branch must be named some special way, unless there's nothing special". I already defined what the special way means, and when there's nothing special. Because really, what is special about that run:
[1049] NES Batman by Aglar in 09:21.93
And what if there appears a "game end glitch" branch for this game? Would they become "game end glitch" and "no game end glitch"? The answer is, they might, but until there are even more branches. Then one would need to avoid what's common and label what's unique. As I always say, if 4 branches avoid X and 1 uses it, we call the one that uses it "uses X" instead of calling the rest 4 "avoids X".
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Radiant wrote:
The solution is very simple: use a more precise term.
For example: some people believe that any movie that uses sequence breaking is "glitched". Other people don't. The straightforward solution is to use the more precise term instead: if a movie is sequence breaking, label it "sequence breaking"; and the issue is resolved.
The clear outcome of this poll is that we shouldn't use the terms "glitched" or "any%" in movie names, because there is disagreement over what they mean. That's ok, we can use more precise terms where they apply. For example, "sequence breaking" or "memory corruption" or indeed "End Game Glitch".
TAS'ing is all about precision, so we shouldn't be afraid to use precise terms to label a movie, when there's disagreement over a broad and general term.
I didn't expect I would see a post ITT that I would second that much.
Do you think that we must put the question "what glitch does it use that needs to be in the branch?" to all runs that 1) clearly need it, and 2) are up to now ambiguous? I think it must be similar to what was done to obsoletion chains: a movie is put for discussion, then when there's some agreement, it's applied.
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Radiant wrote:
Right. Because the term "glitched" was never consistently applied, and people have widely different definitions of what they mean by it. You can see that in this thread, there's at least five distinct definitions here that contradict each other, and all of them are subjective. It simply leads to endless debate, which isn't helpful.
That's why we need something objective. An End Game Glitch is a glitch that lets you end the game directly. Very simple, very straightforward. This is an End Game Glitch. This is clearly not (but you could argue for hours about whether the trick at 3:10 makes it "glitched" or not). So an End Game Glitch is actually a distinction that we can base different branches on.
Yes, and what to do with things like this:
[1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12
You can try to show me people that don't understand the difference the X-Ray glitch introduces from the fastest run that avoids it (and arbitrary code), but it doesn't mean they are majority.
Yes, the problem is runs where one no longer can see the border line between "completely broken", "largely broken" and "slightly broken". But if they are in Moons, we would still need some names to tell what's different about them. It would require picking up the list of such runs where it is already ambiguous and working out the solution. Instead of telling it can't be figured out.
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Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
What do you think of that definition?
It's a circular definition, and that doesn't help. Everything relies on whether the game is broken enough or whether the so-called standard route is deviated from enough because every TAS breaks and deviates to some extent. This is the exact same issue we had months ago.
You should stick with End Game Glitch; at least that is objective and clear.
How does definition of game breaking glitch contradicts the use of "Game End Glitch" to label a certain type of it? Not all runs that used to be called "glitched" use game end glitch. Right? Then how do you determine the label "X glitch" is needed at all? If my suggestion of how to determine it (surely it's case-by-case, but it's abstracted to only 2 common features that are easy to check) has weak points, quote them. Or maybe you think that the whole thing (opinion of half the people on the site) is a mess and there's no freaking way one could understand what's a game-breaking glitch?
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Warp wrote:
As I said, in my opinion it shouldn't be the role of the branch name to describe the details of the run. The "default" branch has one goal, and one goal only: Complete the game as fast as possible, using any means possible. How it achieves that is completely inconsequential (with respect to the branch name.) If this goal is achieved by using some specific techniques, those can be expressed with the tags and in the description of the run.
You (for some reason) keep referring to the priority system that doesn't work anymore. I think I described why in several posts. As in, Moons don't have any default goals except for "to entertain". Nor do they have default condition sets. Whatever looks good meets the goal. So one can't rule Moons with the Vault approach without victims.
Scepheo wrote:
I honestly think you're just trying to discuss something that nobody else cares about. The main discussion is pretty much about the 2 options Radiant named. You're the only one talking about labels/branchs/flags ("But do you have a flag?") for all the other restrictions.
You honestly think that after looking at the poll results someone is going to apply the either option the hard way? What I am the only one to do here is to find a solution that solves the MAIN problem: people's opinions exactly halved on the matter raised by the poll. It can be solved by:
- applying both at once now (impossible since they contradict each other)
- applying neither (satisfies no one)
- applying both partially
People in this thread, since they weren't given any clear option besides those 2, feel that if they just state what they think, it's all they need to do. You see the result. I'm trying to reconcile the contradicting camps and seem to be the only one who cares of the contradiction (or sees it).
On the other note, I'm trying to come up with some definition for a game breaking glitch. It seems to need 2 traits:
- break the gameplay, engine, code execution, overcome intended logics
- cut down the length dramatically, compared to the fastest run that avoids that glitch
Only if we require these 2 at once it is going to work. The first one draws the line between (ab)using gameplay, engine, intended logics and breaking them, to make the game something other. The second one is important: since it's about making the new branch, it would need to entertain, and to be different enough from what's already done (otherwise it simply obsoletes). Like, when the current MM1 was submitted, it was a significant improvement (and the gameplay was corrupted), but the time cut wasn't dramatically huge (the gameplay was not broken). What's dramatically huge? Well, twice shorter, and more. Actually, it would be seen when we are at judging it.
What do you think of that definition?
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I think screen shaking is the only thing ng_deblink doesn't handle at all.
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Okay, I see that it works well as examples. If I were in the camp of "glitched & any%", I would pick the second options (which is quite intuitive). But you see, people have already decided, and their opinions on your examples can be easily assumed. You still give only 2 options after all.
But my idea is that, since SMW allows freaking tons of in-game options of how to beat the game, it will become:
"executes arbitrary code", "end game glitch", "96 exits", "11 exits", and "small only".
No blank branch since this game allows variety. No any% branch, since it doesn't track your completion %. As for the fastest one indication, I love the movie flag solution. So branches would do their job to categorize, and flags would do their to highlight.
And yes, specific conditions that are known only to speedrunners (TAS and RTA) must be put into descriptions, not labels.
Scepheo wrote:
feos wrote:
As for, where we use the label any% then, I have no idea. Just because it doesn't tell anyone anything other than "it's the fastest branch". Man, it doesn't fulfill its own purpose as a branch name: it neither tells by what conditions the goal was achieved, nor does it show how does that branch differ from others.
But it does show/tell those things. It tells you that the only conditions that apply to the movie are the site rules (no cheats), and it tells you that it differs from the others by not having any restrictions. Any% says "this is the fastest you can complete the game without restrictions".
Don't I say "in-game options" enough? There are hundreds of them, each game can have any amount of them. These options are:
- amount of simultaneously used players
- different characters
- different endings
- warps
- exit amounts
and there are more.
The person who knows the game instantly knows what to expect from the movie if it's properly labeled. If some of them aren't, it becomes a black box. Don't you see how all kinds of different in-game options are substituted with only 1 (it's fastest) and that one is misleading? Or maybe you're able to pick all our unnamed branches on the side and without reading the description tell which built-in options were used to complete the game as fast as possible? You still didn't provide good use from knowing which branch is the fastest, and why it can never ever be done by using a movie flag.
EDIT:
Yeah, I forgot. Restrictions! See my previous post on why that, as a Vault approach, fails to handle the Moons. Because Moons don't deal with restrictions. They deal with viewer's joy. And viewer needs good taxonomy to get more joy and not have it spoiled with annoyance.
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Radiant wrote:
What I think Adelikat means is that "any%" has a specific definition (i.e. "the fastest run") and we should not use that term if we mean something else (e.g. "an entertaining run that shows off a lot of the game but isn't the fastest"). There's nothing wrong with entertaining runs that show off a lot of the game, but just don't call them "any%". Use a different term.
I don't remember where I suggest using any% name at all. I suggested dropping the label for games that don't allow variety (NES: Batman, Darkwing Duck, Donkey Kong, stuff like that). Just because there's nothing you can put in that label for them, no matter how hard you try. Only self-imposed conditions for such games would need labels, like "pacifist" or "no jumps", but that wouldn't mean we need to put "no pacifist" or "jumps" to the other branch.
That especially makes since when we have 4 branches that avoid 1 thing and 1 branch that uses it. If we put "avoids the thing" to all 4, we're being silly, if we put it to some, we're inconsistent. And not basing the label on the in-built options we are also unclear to the viewer and not future-proof.
As for, where we use the label any% then, I have no idea. Just because it doesn't tell anyone anything other than "it's the fastest branch". Man, it doesn't fulfill its own purpose as a branch name: it neither tells by what conditions the goal was achieved, nor does it show how does that branch differ from others. If so, it shouldn't exist in that form at all! Use things for what they suit for... I can draw a movie flag for "fastest branch" in a few minutes, and all will be happy: all who want to know the fastest one would instantly know it, all who want to know the conditions would see it in the labels.
EDIT:
Radiant wrote:
Some people (e.g. Warp, if I understand him correctly) think End Game Glitches are like warps, i.e. TASes are expected to use them where they exist. A TAS that uses an End Game Glitch is the default branch and go in the vault. A TAS that foregoes an End Game Glitch is a special case that has to be labeled, and has to prove that it's unique enough for a separate branch, and entertaining enough for moon tier.
Other people (e.g. Feos, if I understand him correctly) think End Game Glitches are like cheat codes, i.e. TASes are expected to avoid them. A TAS that foregoes an End Game Glitch is the default branch and can go in the vault. A TAS that does use an End Game Glitch is a special case that has to be labeled, and has to prove that it's unique enough for a separate branch, and entertaining enough for moon tier.
Here you again re trying to solve the issue picking only 2 possibilities. If we only had 2 branches maximum, it would work, and worked. With Moons it's no longer which option one likes the most, it's about statistics and taxonomy. I'll quote the above:
If we put "avoids the thing" to all 4, we're being silly, if we put it to some, we're inconsistent. And not basing the label on the in-built options we are also unclear to the viewer and not future-proof.
EDIT:
Also, you keep referring the the priority system where world records are main and default goals and all other are side goals and must justify their existence by being entertaining. It's correct, but right up to the moment when the run DOES get published. After it's published, it no longer has any relation or dependence on the fastest, vaultable branch, it lives it own life. Which is, to fulfill the Superplay goal.
It means, we will have way more superplays than speedruns here for games that allow it. Superplays from the very past were actually our main site goals, since speedruns that were boring weren't accepted at all. But even superplays were limited in their amounts. Now, with Vault that allows boring speedruns, we also give freedom to superplays.
We would apply your priority system while judging them, but then we would get into an endless trouble of how to categorize those superplays better. You should understand, that once they are published, they can not be ruled by the Vault system. They need their own. They deserve it after all :)
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I was thinking of that game a bit lately, since now I have the skill to figure its stuff out, but I realized that it's so obvious other people could do it. If you know which bytes represent the triggers, you would need breakpoints to all of them, and then, navigating through all the rooms, watch, which room reads which bit. Then, use hex editor to change the value and see what changes in the as you re-enter the room. And what actions SET those bits can be found out later by namely disasming the code.
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Scepheo wrote:
feos wrote:
Warp wrote:
Since the "official WR" is kind of the "main" run of the game, all the others being runs with alternative goals (which essentially trade speed for entertainment), it makes sense to leave the branch of this "default main" completion unnamed. It's the "default" branch, and thus doesn't need a name.
Yes, and what's the benefit of using exactly unnamed branch for that purpose?
There isn't necessarily any. But this branch is 'any%', and some time during the site's history people decided we didn't label runs 'any%' anymore. It is, however, still the "anything goes" as-fast-as-you-can category, so even the glitched jump-to-the-credits movies are simply 'any%'. I'm okay with bringing back that label, but labeling some of the anything-goes-fastest movie 'any%' and others 'glitched' is just inconsistent and unclear.
I see, you're exactly saying "it used to work" and I already answered that elaborately in the previous post.
Scepheo wrote:
feos wrote:
Yes, and what's the benefit of using exactly unnamed branch for that purpose?
There isn't necessarily any.
OK, why solve the problems this thread was spawned by, let's just ignore them. We don't need benefits to know what's better, what brings more good and what is future-proof. We can just apply stuff and be happy.
Spikestuff wrote:
Pointing something out in terms of Votes.
We have 3 votes to "Something else (post in thread)".
But we have only one person who "(post in thread)"
Unless I'm poorly misreading then we have 0 people who have infact posted their thoughts when selecting that one.
Also to the one who voted "You suck" smart way to waste a vote.
Edit: Got told that that Scepheo is one of the others.
Sorry Scepheo for not acknowledging your point or missing it completely.
I told you guys the thread is cursed. I spam on each page that I suggest the system that's better than the first 2 options in the poll and no one sees it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
Since the "official WR" is kind of the "main" run of the game, all the others being runs with alternative goals (which essentially trade speed for entertainment), it makes sense to leave the branch of this "default main" completion unnamed. It's the "default" branch, and thus doesn't need a name.
Yes, and what's the benefit of using exactly unnamed branch for that purpose? What if someone isn't looking for "fastest ever", but needs to know the gameplay conditions? For most unnamed branches gameplay conditions would differ, just as do most of our branches differ. Which means the goal set fails to be represented by that unnamed branch name. It's also inconsistent: all games have branches that show what game features they use to complete the game, and bam! suddenly some refuse to tell the viewer that information. As Demon Lord stated, highlighting the fastest branch can be done the soft way, and he suggested 2: adding an icon or sorting game groups by length by default.
Then, where, except for the Judge Guidelines do we tell the viewer that the unnamed branch is "fastest possible"? Then, why people keep thinking that only "fastest possible" needs that kind of highlight? Why not 100%? Why not a starred branch?
One may answer: "Well, it was traditionally there and all was ok". There are counter-arguments to that.
Glitched branch was also traditionally there, but people think it's not ok (and I proved it's not ok anymore as it was, so it needs some tweak, but not removal).
It was ok when the problem didn't exist, and the branch amount was limited. Now it's not limited, we will get a huge load of new categories on our site, and the viewer would need telling labels.
And what label is more telling than which is based on the in-built gameplay options? Such label would give at least 2 benefits:
Clarity (finally), since we would no longer serve up the single "anything goes" category by building all the other category names around it not caring how little sense they make. The viewer that doesn't have any knowledge of the game now would see that it has some options ("Richter", "hard mode", whatever) that are labeled consistently for all games. And those who know the game would see which gameplay options were used, rather than "whatever arbitrary goal set was spare from the any%".
Future-proof, since we won't be handling mostly 1-2 branches, but 3-5 (in a few years), and "blank" vs "some other" won't work anymore. The system is no longer WR-based, it's diversity-based and joy-based. Which means, our actual main and default goals are to entertain the audience, not to put records of various boringness.
If I'm wrong in my conclusions, quote and disprove. If my benefits are false, quote and disprove. If there are bigger benefits in the opposite side, please list them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This thread is cursed. Questions get asked several times and no one sees them. Answers are given several times and no one discusses them... I'll try once again.
Warp wrote:
The solution is easy, relatively speaking: Which one of them should be considered the "official world record" completion of the game? The other one gets a branch name.
feos wrote:
"None of the first 2 options in the poll is perfect. Each leaves a huge room for contradictions and arguments. So here's something different from both."
feos wrote:
So I'm asking, why invent ways to highlight the fastest branch by not having a label at all? Why serve up that holy cow? It worked when branches were limited, with Moons it just doesn't. If fastest is the default goal, all the rest break, since people seem to be unable to come up with terms that both camps would consider clear. Each camp believes their option is clear as day, and they disagree, so then both options aren't objectively clear.
I can understand when World Record gets hyped about in the real-time community, where it is constantly drifting from one guy to another. But WR exists for all categories they speedrun, not only for fastest. But why showcase the shortest possible WR by dropping the label? Can anyone please list the benefits that aren't contradictory to something other we need to handle here?
Also, I loved this:
adelikat wrote:
So I hear you answering the question as "We know it is a contradiction and dont' care, it is the lesser of two evils".
feos wrote:
"None of the first 2 options in the poll is perfect. Each leaves a huge room for contradictions and arguments. So here's something different from both."
adelikat wrote:
So you don't agree that it is a contradiction?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Oh, I forgot!
MESHUGGAH: use Marx's last WIP for level 3.
Marx: you may redo the later levels while we are shaving the earlier ones.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Hi Demon Lord, thanks for your thoughts. Please look at my previous post above and tell how well does that system match your expectations as a viewer. If you want the full picture, go here, thanks.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
