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I don't see which part of my suggestions you disagree with. With the fact that there are only 2 runs that actually use total control they've taken? With labeling only these 2 "total control"? With not labeling them "total control: something"?
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Yes, I agree with removing it. Too few people were really happy with how and what it was. I still think that some info from the page must be put somewhere to be more accessible (like what TASers find irritating in TASing), but the whole thing serves only some ambiguous goal.
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Pasky13 made hitbox lua for NG1. It's not perfect, but it works. Do you want me to try make a new one?
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Nach wrote:
It's hard to predict the future, but say Masterjun made the following:
Super Mario World now has the Tanooki suit from Super Mario Bros 3, you get it every time you hit a Yellow switch block. It also has the Hammer Bros. Suit which you get from Green switch blocks. And this in-game hack is now used for a playaround to go crazy within the game completing 96 levels in the most absurd manner possible.
The above would be quite different than what you want to currently label as playaround. What would you label this case?
I didn't in fact suggest "ACE: playaround" as a branch. I suggested using "total control" whenever the goal is NOT fastest completion of something. Otherwise total control is only a slave and can be thrown away if it appears possible faster without it.
Similarly, speed entertaining trade offs can be some kind of a playaround within the general speedrun condition, or even a playaround can be done without speed sacrifices: we don't label such runs as a playaround, since those can be very well done without it, and still count, playaround there is only a nice feature, not the dominant goal. We only label playaround the runs where the speed is NOT the main goal at all.
Nach wrote:
You suggest we only more descriptively subtag label runs in case of more branches being created for a single game. I disagree, certain subtags will end up carrying connotations as to how they're used. Playaround right now is used across the site to suggest a long winded but insane abuse of the games psychics engines, bug demonstrations, incredible activities, and more. I would not consider adding on new games or a pony cutscene to be the same category.
We should aim for subtags which work across all games, and choose them up front.
The problem is, we don't have reliable statistics with total control runs to make reasonable abstractions yet. If there are 2-3 times more such runs, I promise to revisit the case. For now it's such a microscope issue that it's more of an exception, that can be handled whatever way. I only try to let it as simple as possible, not complicating things for future and preset.
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Warp wrote:
Inzult wrote:
Sorry, what's exactly being suggested here
Actually I think you are making a good point here at a more general level.
I find myself slightly confused about the topic being discussed. Could someone write a short summary of what the problem is exactly, and what the proposed solutions are? Like a kind of short distilled recap of the entire thread.
I can make a new thread, abstracting there all we have up to now, avoiding all those "subjective" things and not relying on them. It would summarize all that we need the audience for. Do you want it?
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Scepheo wrote:
TASing (and with that, TASVideos) has always been about 1 thing: creating an as short as possible input file that, when played back, reaches the end of the game.
Your notion is subjective. Please use statistics if you want to prove that point. For now, Moons+Stars (movies that are so entertaining that they don't need to be fastest possible) are about 50% of all ever published movies, and Vault runs (minus those of them that can be done faster, hence can't be speed records) are about 40% of those.
I know that in many cases those overlap, and speed was entertaining, but your notion even contradicts reality, since even fastest possible runs hat weren't entertaining were being rejected up to the last year. Which is 9 years, over 1 that we have Vault.
Why does this contradiction happen? Because of absolutization. Refer to this post on that matter. I will retell the main point: TASing relies on determinism in 100% cases. Which doesn't exist in reality. Some runs can sync on console, some of them can't. We don't consider invalid what can't sync on console. Because the limited sphere where it does work (deterministic emulation) is too awesome to kill such a huge part of it due to absolutization and demanding it to be 100% true to reality. If we don't let it go a bit, we won't have it on the current level of joy.
Truth is, nothing in this universe can be considered absolute. Neither can "the only goal of TASing" can be considered such. Because it's all subjective, as long as enough people disagree.
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About Arbitrary Code Execution and all related stuff.
If we use ACE with subtags, there will be 2 situations.
- ACE used primarily, for the sake of itself, to make some glitchfest playaroiund.
- ACE used only as a mean for something other, like ending the game instantly, or warping within each level to its end, like Masterjun did.
For the first case, I suggest switching to the term "total control". Because it doesn't only take total control over the game and then just drop it as a sacrifice for speed, but it keeps applying it more and more, showcasing the very fact that total control is taken.
In the second case, I suggest not using any term at all (ACE, ECA, TC), only the primary goal it's used for - game end skip, or whatever else is considered Moons.
That way total control branch would be so rare that it wouldn't need any sub-labels yet. It only would, if there are several such runs per game. Then, to differentiate between them , we would actually need some sub-label. "total control: Pi", "total control: Ponies", "total control: new games" or whatever. As long as TA exists for different games only, we don't have the need to sub-label it.
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I supported the "newcomer attention" flag because I thought it would release the star quota. It didn't. So, while still picking the most mind-blowing runs for "newcomer", I'm not sure it serves any purpose better than stars.
As for the icon itself, animated is really beautiful to me. If someone wants the still one, pick the first still option. It looks more fresh and warm than all the yellow thingies. Mothrayas' ones even look like bile.
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I'm having some serious bugs with ExactDedup+avs2pipemod. If someone wants to publish this movie, go ahead.
EDIT: had to solve it by dropping the FreeSub use. Resuming.
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Warp wrote:
However, it may be that in some cases the fastest completion time uses some odd technique that, while not disqualifying it from publication, may "disqualify" from being the "official" word record.
Like which?
Also, about someone writing an article, if the person understands what he writes, he will not pick up the unassisted 100% run of Chrono Trigger to compare it to the mid-frame reset TAS, right? He wouldn't even compare the mid-frame reset TAS to the non-mid-frame reset RTA. Because his senses will tell him: "Man, the difference can't be several hours within the same gameplay conditions. RTA can't be that much slower within those conditions. I need to pick the comparable branches."
Ok, so he decided that. Now, while looking at RTAs, he will (in most cases easily) see what were the general conditions: warps, players, ending, difficulty, character. If he looks at TASes, there will now be labels for all of those (whenever it may confuse someone to not have them). So it will make the comparison the easiest possible.
And if there's only one branch, we will need to know what might disqualify the run in someone's eyes. Like, some people consider using Backwards Long Jump in SM64 and avoiding it similar conditions. Some may think it must not be used, and its use disqualifies the "world record" (say, because it can't be used in real-time, or whatever). Some think that avoiding it isn't a world record in any sense. This is why "world record" is subjective.
But in all subjective things there is still a way to get the statistics. If they show that avoiding BLJ is only done in 5% of all submitted SM64 TASes, it's should be considered an exception and labeled when avoided. If it's ~40% of all published TASes of SM64 - I'd label both cases.
BTW, note that in my latest iteration of the system, I never used anything pre-defined, like "game-breaking glitch". It's because such definitions are in fact very subjective. And no matter in which way these techniques are used, only statistics will tell how to label things with the most advantage.
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I missed some point. Are you already trying those delays that can be added whenever the enemy holds you back? Because if you are making the test-final whole run, to check for tiny improvements, it's one thing, and I can do that while you're redoing the whole game now. But if you already did it all, I dunno how I can help at all, you're a tougher TASer. Yeah, I was largely distracted by the branching thread, but still.
Also, if you appear to make it finally perfect, do you want the submission to mention you first? Or my contribution and the initial flow matters more? Or you don't care?
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Exactly what I said. To me common sense is to use it.
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Spikestuff wrote:
I want to say you can just the word "warps" because it is common sense.
We currently the word "warps". As for common sense, different people appear to have it different. But who is laborious enough will be able to improve the system over that to overcome the contradictions.
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I think that post by Nach tells why "fastest possible game completion" can be implied (by some people), but can't be effectively used as the blank branch.
adelikat and Nach agree with me on this: blank branch =/= any%. This is why there was an agreement on IRC to call the "11 exits" (formerly "") branch of Super Mario World "warps". And to call out the used glitch for Masterjun's skip to game end. The fact that they are or were fastest among other branches doesn't make that "default" and doesn't justify the blank branch. Because any of them can be legitimately "any%". Which won't be used anymore due to complete ambiguity. The term "glitched" won't be used either for the same reason: it's too subjective and variable.
Blank branch, however, will be used. Just for a little different purpose. It won't mean any% in all possible cases. It will only mean that the run avoids everything that all the other branches use (unless there is no other branches). In quite many cases it would still fit both, but if it doesn't we shouldn't force it to become any%=blank label.
Here are the examples of the system, it was agreed about on IRC, but it needs some feedback. Please don't repeat "blank branch is the only sane way to label the fastest branch", read the above Nach's post why it can't always be so.
http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/Game/snes-super-mario-world.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/Game/n64-super-mario-64.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/Game/snes-super-metroid.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-battletoads.html
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I can only add that this game, while being created by a talented coder, was being don with complete ignorance towards SEGA's time limits and whatnot, and then it was finished in a hurry. You can even tell by how absurdly boring the last boss looks.
So I think he just wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote something... Then quickly draw the line and now no one (even himself) can reverse that.
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Not enough people share your feelings, that's all.
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I was thinking the whole day, trying to make it more universal. Here:
Movie branches exist to tell the viewer what approach the player used while TASing the game. There can be 3 foundations an approach is build upon.
1) Something that the game directly suggests (from menu, for example).
2) Something the game just allows (may have some indication though).
3) Something the game shouldn't allow, but it does (an erroneous assumption, a bug).
The use of these might need a label, to know if it does, we must answer a question:
Is the applied approach so common that the opposite is an exception?
If it is that common, we don't label runs that do it the common way, and label runs that don't, if there are counterpart runs of the same game.
If it's not that common, we label each approach, if there are counterpart runs of the same game.
When assessing range, something must be considered possible unless we are sure it is not. Obsoleted movies should count.
That's it! Now let's try some application.
Should we label runs that use Backwards Long Jump?Let's find the range: It only can be used in Super Mario 64.
Check the common way: Most of the SM64 runs use it (including all the obsoleted ones), a single one avoids it.
Result: When it's avoided, it must be labeled, if there are counterpart runs.
Should we label pacifist runs?Let's find the range: All games where one can kill enemies.
Check the common way: Among 882 movies (Shooter and Platform genres) there are 5 pacifist runs. 0.5%. Pacifist is exceptional.
Result: When it's a pacifist, it must be labeled, if there are counterpart runs.
Should we label 2/1 players in a multiplayer game runs?Let's find the range: All games that allow more than 1 simultaneous player (dunno how to list such games).
Check the common way: 32 use 1 player in a multiplayer game, 84 use 2 players. 38%. Neither is an exception.
Result: When it's 2/1 players in a multiplayer game, it must be labeled, if there are counterpart runs.
Applying it to "arbitrary code execution" or "game end glitch" gives the result: "must be labeled when used, if there are counterpart runs".
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Tell me where the poll gives the "uses x glitch" option.
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Radiant wrote:
It strikes me that most people, even fans of the game, may not know what a "box glitch" really is. So it may be a good idea to instead name the effect instead, e.g. "out of bounds". That would be clearer.
Oh man...
feos wrote:
- skips to ending: "game end glitch"
- warps throughout the game, or right to near the end: "warp glitch"
- corrupts save data: "SRAM glitch"
- can't be abstracted: invent a new name with the help of the forums. Sometimes it already exists.
If the glitch is so weird and unused elsewhere that it can't be abstracted, it would NEED a name. Explaining it must be done in the movie description (and is done so in all such cases that I didn't miss).
Radiant wrote:
Aside from that, we have an interesting situation now over at Battletoads. Specifically, the "warps, 2 players" run is obsoleted by "warpless, 2 players", whereas the "warps, 1 player" run is obsoleted by "warps, 2 players". If I understand the system correctly, there should be five distinct branches here, i.e. "warp 1p", "warp 2p", "warpless 1p", "warpless 2p" and EGG; so perhaps some chains should be switched here.
Back then (look at the dates) no one cared about that. I'm not going to "fix" the mistakes that weren't mistakes. I only know that mine and MESHUGGAH's Battletoads obsoleted 1p warped because it was supposed to be the fastest branch.
Radiant wrote:
As Nach wrote, "2) All significant differentiators should be tagged where applicable. Even if this means every run for a game now has several tags.". To me, that suggests that all of the Super Mario World runs should be tagged as "warps" or "no warps", for example, or that this run would be "princess only, warps".
It tells to label all runs that can be labeled. As in, basing on the in-game options used that have counterparts, or on player-invented conditions. If there is a counterpart for "princess only, warps" - "princess only, warpless", they will both have these labels. If Battletoads "game end glitch" existed for both 1 player and 2 players, they you be "GEG, 1 player" and "GEG, 2 players". Same about Super C.
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Radiant wrote:
2. The run uses the self-imposed conditions not suggested by the game as options (pacifist, walkathon, arbitrary code execution, playaround, 100%). Not using is implied, since otherwise the labels will blow.
I agree with most of that, but I don't think that arbitrary code execution is a self-imposed condition. Rather, the opposite (no ACE) is a speed/entertainment tradeoff, so that would be a self-imposed condition.
If a "speed-entertainment trade off" is used in all branches but one, why you and some other people so eager to see "no arbitrary code execution" in freaking all the other branches? And why do you love to blow the labels?
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "warps, no arbitrary code execution" in 09:57.82 by bahamete, Kaizoman666, Mister & PangaeaPanga.
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "game end glitch" in 01:39.74 by Masterjun.
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "small only, no arbitrary code execution" in 1:18:23.22 by PangaeaPanga.
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "96 exits, no arbitrary code execution" in 1:14:37.63 by bahamete, Kaizoman666 & Masterjun.
SNES Super Mario World (USA) in 02:25.19 by Masterjun. (this one uses ACE. and it's not a speedrun. it doesn't even beat the game. but looks like any%)
Really? Like that????
On the matter: does the game suggest you to either pick "arbitrary code" or not, as a normal player? If it doesn't, it's your own, self-imposed condition - to either pick it or not. I'm not telling using it is self-imposed, or avoiding it is self-imposed. I say the option itself is so.
Then, it becomes ONLY a matter of clean branches: we wither call out the use of that technique (that's so exceptional it does need a label, to show the viewer what it does) or we call out that it's voided (if it's so common the labels will become cleaner without it).
feos wrote:
1. The run uses what the game suggests as different gameplay options (amount of characters, use of warps, different characters or endings). Neither is implied, since either can appear faster.
Radiant wrote:
Sounds good, I agree. I suppose that "best ending" or "julius mode" would also fall under this.
Uh...
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Nach wrote:
feos, very nice job on your updates.
Regarding "game end glitch", I'm wondering if perhaps we should turn these massive glitches into a glitch tag with a sub tag, meaning we could have:
glitch - game end
glitch - x-ray
glitch - pipe
glitch - coin case
etc...
I believe it must be like that:
If the run uses the game-breaking glitch (that breaks the game execution and also cuts down the length several times), it must be labeled as "X glitch". X is figured out like that:
- skips to ending: "game end glitch"
- warps throughout the game, or right to near the end: "warp glitch"
- corrupts save data: "SRAM glitch"
- can't be abstracted: invent a new name with the help of the forums. Sometimes it already exists.
Nach wrote:
feos, I very much like what you're saying.
Also, the "movie classes" on the site should perhaps in some way tie into the call outs.
Movie classes serve for litstings, so should do branches.
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I kept thinking it all over, and here's the simplest I can put it:
1. The run uses what the game suggests as different gameplay options (amount of characters, use of warps, different characters or endings). Neither is implied, since either can appear faster.
Call out when:
2. The run uses the self-imposed conditions not suggested by the game as options (pacifist, walkathon, arbitrary code execution, playaround, 100%). Not using is implied, since otherwise the labels will blow.
Call out when:
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(tl dr) I installed the latest MPC and all encodes work without tweaks :)
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The current icon rocks.
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Warp wrote:
Warp wrote:
I envision this causing obsoletion problems (which is one of the reasons why I think that the branch name should not fix any of the techniques used.) If a new run is submitted that uses a different set of the techniques than the old one used, should the branch name be changed or a new branch created?
Has this been properly answered?
What was said by Nach was examples and possibilities. They can be used once we feel they work. And if without them it still works, those specifics aren't needed.
About obsoltions. The label actually needs to be common enough to allow obsoletions by using different techniques without changing the branch. Like, Super Mario World "warps". It was done with 11 exits, but can appear faster with 12 or 1, without game-breaking glitches (arbitrary code and whatnot). So "warps" includes all possible techniques within that branch. As does "game end glitch". It doesn't matter how it skips to ending, it matters how fast.
But still, there's a possibility that one branch obsoletes another different one, if people feel their content overlaps enough. It would be cross-branch obsoletions, as happened to Cross Fire "pacifist" (absoleted by any%).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
