Posts for feos

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Since "any% no OoB" and "100%" would both be "no OoB", I'd leave that glitch for only 1 branch label - this one's.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Can "no OoB" not be 100%?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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arandomgameTASer wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/14261152466587404 Made a 320 frame improvement based on suggestions posted. Can the current file be replaced please?
Oh, very good. Just wanted to ask about improvements and now I see this :) BTW, what about this movie's branch? Seems it's some huge glitch finishing the game several minutes faster than expected. From the submission text, looks like a "game end glitch" to me.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Dimon12321 wrote:
I don't understand why did he spent 2 week on 1 frame??
Because he is obsessed loves what he's doing. It's never required to spend weeks on frames, but quite some dedication is usually needed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This is what it is called guys. A trunk! http://tasvideos.org/JudgeGuidelines.html#Branches Discuss.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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That's the point. "default", "basic", "classic" are all traditional here. They are so common we aren't mentioning them. Remember how "aims for fastest time" category got retired? I'm sure it only takes people to understand that blank branch means "average", not any%, and all the rest just clicks. Because otherwise we would have to come up with all sorts of silly looking names as happened after retiring "glitched" the wrong way.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Dimon12321 wrote:
"never give up"... I remember Churchill's talking on this theme! Maybe I unconsciously do my runs, but now I'm convinced that even if I TAS a game on all rules (what actually I did before), people will find mistakes anyway!
Exactly. Over the 10 years, as this site exists, the average quality if TASes increased very much. What was okay 8 years ago wouldn't work now. 5 year old runs still stand. We have many skilled TASers that absolutize perfection. And the info base is always filled in, just look at threads for popular games. So I'd say, now it's really really hard to compete with these skilled players, unless you become one of them. Because when people spend months on one run (Tompa once spent 2 weeks on 1 saved frame), it's nearly impossible to make a run where no one would see flaws. But who is familiar with TASing has a feeling of what is good enough, and what is sloppy. Which is the border of acceptance here: it should be good enough. When a TAS is good enough? Not when the author says "I don't know how to improve", but when he says "I redid the levels several times, saving fames all the time, and now I don't know how to improve more". It's all about how much you redo. So don't be afraid to try redoing whatever is done (be it a room, or a kill) so many times that you are sure it's fastest. http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide/TASArt.html
Dimon12321 wrote:
I watched lots of TAS movie from the yard, which I played myself before on my Famicom and Mega Drive and some runs were rejected because there is the same game on more modern port, so I'm not sure this port will be published as it's already TASed on N64! Probably all =)
Yes, each system can have its port accepted, unless they are deliberately identical.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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adelikat wrote:
feos wrote:
For this game it can work. But realtime is actually our "so common it's default" condition. All the rest SM runs are also "realtime", so it's not unique over them in that.
Right, I'm not suggesting any rule incorporate "realtime". I am saying that the guidelines should allow the labeling of the "unlabeled" run for the purpose of reducing confusion.
Confusion will always be there. Having not-intuitive labels uses to cause it instead. And as we already succeeded, we can tell in the description what exactly is being avoided.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Eszik: that's correct, but why should we highlight any% by dropping the label in some cases, and not in others? When it's clear? Clear is as well relative (as my first post tells). For some people it's never clear enough.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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For this game it can work. But realtime is actually our "so common it's default" condition. All the rest SM runs are also "realtime", so it's not unique over them in that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The problem with labeling the run that uses "neither of those, and nothing else" is that there's nothing to put into its label.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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You don't like it because "warps" is any%? But we retired any%. Blank branch isn't any%, because any% is relative and subjective. Read here on why marking the fastest possible branch isn't the best option.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Here's the list of all our movies that have more than one branch (huge thanks to Ilari). http://pastebin.com/vsZ8UtrF The plan: apply the guideline. Spot cases where some rare condition is used, and a new branch is made out of that. If that condition is used the same way in some other games, but is still very rare, each run that uses it for a different branch must be labeled. If it's a "game-breaking glitch", the label must be "X glitch". If the rare condition is still used in most runs of some game (like BLJ in SM64), the run that avoids it should be 'no X". If there are 2 common ways to apply some condition (warps/warpless, 1 player/2 players), both need a label. Blank branch should only be used for runs without counterparts and runs that don't apply some branch conditions the other branches apply. Like, if there are branches for using "X technique", "Y glitch", "Z% completion" and some branch that does neither and nothing additional, it is left blank. If it uses something those don't use, it needs a label too. Blank branch is not the indication of any%. This way, SMB in 04:57.31 is labeled "warps", because it's a common feature. SM64 in 05:02.25 is "0 stars", because it's unique over the rest runs of it. SM64 in 42:58.52 is "70 stars, no BLJ", because it's unique by avoiding BLJ. Super Metroid in 38:41.52 has no label, because it's a "neither of the rest and nothing additional" condition. Super Metroid in 39:15.3, however, is "ingame time", because it's "neither of the rest, but some additional goal". Battletoads in 00:56.76 is "game end glitch", because it's a glitch, it's rarely used, and it breaks a dramatical amount if time. Other glitch types can be "save glitch", "warp glitch", and more, if can be abstracted. If the glitch is unique and hard to describe, a new name for it must be invented (X-Ray glitch, box glitch).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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andypanther wrote:
The unnamed (any%) branch should always be the fastest way to reach the credits, no matter how this is achieved.
Warp wrote:
I don't think the existing rules are (nor should be) set in stone, never to he changed or amended. For example, if a consensus is reached that using ACE to reach the game end is not a valid "any%" game completion (instead being more akin to a "playaround demo"), then the rules ought to be amended as such. (I'm not saying this must be done, even though personally I would advocate it. My point is that the rules ought to not be so rigid as to not allow this.)
There will never be any consensus, the crowd is exactly halved in opinions on is "glitch X" a part of any% or not. We can't use the either option as it is. So we have retired "glitched" label and "any%" indication. Because both are also subjective and relative. Blank branch will not be an indication of any%.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If it's possible to save 10 seconds with 26 rerecords, it doesn't tell anything good about optimality.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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My opinion now: runs that use ACE to glitch to the game end have the latter as a dominant goal, so they don't care if they use ACE for that or not, whatever glitch does it faster is preferred. So I don't want such runs have the label ACE at all. Having them only as "game end glitch" would deal with all obsoletions that can happen to them. And there are runs that use ACE access to showcase arbitrary code itself, for pure entertainment, just like playarounds. These should have the label. But I suggest switching to the label "total control" for them. First, because arbitrary code doesn't aim for game end at all, like in the above case, and second, because arbitrary code access is extensively used, namely to apply total control to the game, for the sake of itself. As for secting a separate branch for ACE fastest speed runs, against non-ACE fastest speed runs, is only a matter of viewers' taste, since only they decide what's different enough to go Moon separate branch.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Branch poll results (new guideline suggestion)
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Summarizing the results, in a chat manner. What is any%? It is some branch that is - relatively fast - relatively legit How can it be relative? It's either fastest possible or not. It is compared to the other branches, and if all of them are slower, this one is faster. It also depends on conditions. Each branch, if it's of the required quality, is fastest the author could do it. So there are 2 conditions that make it relative: 1) the target category and 2) the player's skill. There are also cases where 100% (or any other condition that is usually slower than any%) appears to be the fastest. No, it's clear and absolute. It's clear for some people, and not for others. And for those who find it clear, it always differs. Once you consider something that depends on people's opinions absolute, you would need to force it in some way, which would harm those opinions. After all, it has been the main goal of TASVideos - to make fastest possible runs. It hasn't. The goal has always been to make entertaining + optimized runs. And for the first 9 years, optimized but boring submissions were rejected, so entertainment was dominant. Only after Vault was added, boring speedruns started getting accepted too. Now both these goals are officially equal. Ok, then how can legitimacy be relative? It is all about conditions. There are conditions that can disqualify the run in some people's eyes. For example, some people can think using debug codes is legit, some can't. Some consider SRAM corruption legit, some don't. Looking at the time alone, one may feel NewGame+ runs are the fastest possible. But many people disagree. Legitimacy depends on conditions and on people's opinions on them. What is a game-breaking glitch? I don't get the meaning, it's undefinable. It is the example of whose legitimacy people can disagree about. It is some trick (bug, glitch, shortcut) a legit speedrun can use, by opinion of some, and that can't be part of a legit speedrun, by opinion of others. No matter what it is, people feel differently about its legitimacy. There is a thread where people were asked if they want some kind of a glitch be mentioned in the fastest existing branch (uses X glitch), or in the fastest one that avoids it (no X glitch). Each option got voted for by ~40% of people. It means, that they have some understanding of what must be mentioned in the branch. Both groups want it be mentioned somehow somewhere. So obviously, they can define it. They just half on the matter how exactly it should be done. Well, it all now appears to be relative (any%, fastest possible, goals, glitchiness). How can you build a guideline with so unreliable grounds? There is only one way. It is, to rely on statistics. If something is so rare it looks exceptional, it needs to be mentioned. If something is so common it looks default, it doesn't. If several different cases are used equally (more or less), they all need to be mentioned. That is the principle. And the guideline itself? Movie branches exist to tell the viewer what approach the player used while TASing the game. There can be 3 foundations an approach is build upon. 1) Something that the game directly suggests (from menu, for example). 2) Something the game just allows (may have some indication though). 3) Something the game shouldn't allow, but it does (an erroneous assumption, a bug). The use of these might need a label. To know if it does, we must answer a question: Is the applied approach so common that the opposite is an exception?
  • If it is that common, we don't label runs that do it the common way, and label runs that don't, if there are counterpart runs of the same game.
  • If it's not that common, we label each approach, if there are counterpart runs of the same game.
When assessing the range, something must be considered possible unless we are sure it is not. Obsoleted movies should count.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Re: Arbitrary code execution
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Warp wrote:
So the question is: Would you think such a "TAS" ought to obsolete a "100%" branch that doesn't use the technique? If your answer is no, then why would you think it should obsolete the "any%" branch either? IMO it shouldn't.
I don't think total control game completion should obsolete "normal" speedruns. There's only one issue: game glitched into completion state, the very thing Warps is so much against, shouldn't obsolete "normal" speedruns either. But one glitched to end TAS can very well obsolete another glitched to end TAS, can't it? They both aren't normal, at least compared to the majority of speedruns, where such glitches are mostly not possible (or not discovered yet).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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So you mean, the runs that do some significant game code corruption need a label? In most cases it's not "total control" at all, and arbitrary code portions are so insignificant I wouldn't even label them as arbitrary code. If you want some other label, suggest it. But I don't see anything is needed besides the usual movie classes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
Yet it seems there are more that we should consider labeling as such.
I know of 2 that are published as such. I know a few that were rejected. Rejected runs don't need labels. I don't know people's opinions on that very well, maybe a new thread is needed, just to discuss ACE runs taxonomy. Why don't you address the opinion that only non-speed-oriented runs must be labeled as "total control" (ACE/ECA/whatever)?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Tags should try to be generic yet clear.
This is obvious.
"arbitrary code" or "total control" is too generic.
This is subjective. I don't see anything too generic when there are only 2 published runs with it.
Playaround as a tag or sub tag for things which do something other than play around the existing built-in physics engine and mechanics is a bad idea.
This point is agreed about, don't see anyone disagreeing.
With the arbitrary execution that we've seen in submissions and publications, various payload objectives are already emerging.
They are, but statistics is too poor to make abstractions (to decide when it's generic enough, not too much, not too little).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Hmmm, interesting. How many "people" is that?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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