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Mothrayas wrote:
Stars are highlighted on the front page (newcomer recs is outside the scope of the current argument), Moons are displayed in all movie publication lists, and Vault movies are only there if all runs per platform are requested. That's all various differences/levels of highlighting/visibility of runs, and that is where the hierarchy aspect comes in.
I see only two differences/levels of highlighting/visibility of runs. Hiding Vault Vs. not Hiding the rest, and highlighting Stars Vs. not anything else. Hiding can be done by user defined rating cutoff (better since it's flexible, better since no run gets stigmated, which people are definitely arguing against). Highlighting of stars won't change. If we only want these 2 methods of promotion, they will still be there.
Mothrayas wrote:
Regarding board games, many of the board game runs that have been rejected, were rejected exactly because of the lack of interest value to them. If they were interesting, people would be entertained by them and voted accordingly, which hasn't really happened convincingly for many of them.
Quote me saying Demo is for "interesting" runs. It is for impressive achievements that don't meet the current standards of the main 2 tiers. If you want, I'll also list people who want board games published. If you want, you can ignore them stating that, but it's no solution.
Mothrayas wrote:
For the rest of it, I still don't really see this "tier" being worthwhile enough to have on the site, as it seems to be a dumping ground for ideas that might be somewhat novel but are still either just boring or are not actually proper runs/playthroughs, and also don't achieve the site's/current Vault's goal of being a speedrun archive. And I still haven't seen anything that suggests it would end up holding more than a small handful of runs.
I'd say it's what opinions are for. How do I prove something is needed if it pops up every once in a while, has definite meaning, but isn't taken seriously by you? I'd think, only by linking to posts that want this tier, but it'd take a week to find them all.
Mothrayas wrote:
I still have yet to see an argument as to how or why splitting off any%/100% and esoteric goals from each other achieves anything at all. Again, what does that achieve? Why should, say, Super Metroid RBO be split away from Super Metroid 100%? What purpose will it have?
It solves problems people unhappy with the current vault system (should I quote them all too by any chance?) have with it. Most of those who stated that in other threads now support the suggested change. Probably reading the posts I linked could help seeing what and how it solves to them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Mothrayas wrote:
The tier system was introduced to allow the site to function as an archive for speedrun records, while also still highlighting entertaining runs. Hence, we have Moons (and Stars) as higher tiers which are more easily showcased, while in the lower end we can still have speedrun records for less interesting games with less interesting runs for those who want to look for those games/runs.
If we remove the hierarchical tier aspect, then what is the point of having "tiers" (or whatever you want to call them) in the first place? How do you want to use that to highlight good runs, regardless of whether they're standard categories or not? It's just dividing exotic categories away from standard categories for no particularly good reason. Why does Super Metroid RBO have to be in a different grouping than Super Metroid 100%? What purpose will it have?
How does this hierarchical aspect function in the first place? We show stars and moons in movies by platform lists, and hide vault runs from there. We link to 3 tiers separately too (well, they appear in different recent movies lists on the front page too). That's all I can tell about it being hierarchical. If hiding lower part is the only way to showcase the higher part, I'd say we're not actually promoting anything.
On the other hand, stars and newcomer recs serve promotion well, since they are displayed on the front page randomly (depending on being logged in).
Mothrayas wrote:
The "tier 3" seems to introduce a new idea of concept runs that don't finish a game normally, and while we have a very select few of those on the site already, I don't see the reason to create a whole new "tier" just for what seems like it will be no more than a small handful of runs. Unless you want to change the direction of the site, away from focusing on full runs of games, but as long as hardly any currently publishable runs of that sort exist, I don't think it's a good idea to add a whole new "tier" for those.
I actually never intended to say it is for runs that don't beat the game. It is for anything that can't be in records or moons, but people still vote Yes for (and post their reasons in the threads). Right now, there was clear will to have board game tases published somehow. But Vault rules forbid those, Moon rules require being more entertaining, so board games meet neither, but people want them anyway!
More ideas about what can be sent to Demo tier can be found here:
http://tasvideos.org/Feos/Ideas.html#Brancheshttp://tasvideos.org/Feos/Ideas.html#Tiershttp://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14776
But all those pages just list cases that could be put to Demo, while deciding if that should be done can be by votes and posts.
Mothrayas wrote:
Post counts do not matter, people matter. How many people have agreed to these ideas?
Yeah, that's what I meant. Will count in my next post.
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Radiant wrote:
Aside from that, in my view, we currently have too many categories/groupings/tiers already. Instead of creating yet more of them, a better approach would be to get rid of the "notable improvements" pseudo-tier (there's an ongoing discussion about that) and fold "recommended for newcomers" into Star tier since they have substantial overlap.
This thread isn't about any of these.
xy2_ wrote:
The SM64 community uses the term 'freeruns', as in runs that don't have the objective of going fast, but rather show off impressive feats. This might be a fitting name.
The question is about changing the word "tiers" to something more fitting, since this won't be about entertainment value layers any more.
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Yes. 2 is about being entertaining. 3 is about being not entertaining but impressive in some other way.
The only actual "problem" then is calling those tiers. Well, what other names would fit the concept?
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Appearance
CATEGORY1: all any% and 100%
CATEGORY2: all entertaining side goals
CATEGORY3: entertaining rule breakers
CATEGORY4: the most entertaining runs from all of the above
Submission poll
Return to the "Should this be published?" question.
People love to vote based on their feelings, which can be affected by different factors: optimality, entertainment, impressiveness. Each if these alone is a ground to publish something, and if all of them are on a high level, a run can be starred.
Judgment logic
Language: c
void JudgeMovie()
{
if (SubOptimal)
return Reject();
if (any% || 100%)
return Accept(CATEGORY1);
if (!Entertaining)
return Reject();
if (BreaksSomeRules) // but still entertaining
return Accept(CATEGORY3);
else
return Accept(CATEGORY2);
}
Category names
CATEGORY1 was suggested to be named Coins. This keeps our usual reference to SMW:
Coin: Common, but good to find.
Moon: Rare, in SMW one of these is worth 300 coins.
Star: Very rare - you can't recreate the effect with coins or even a Moon, but only by finding a Star.
CATEGORY1 was also suggested to be named Records.
CATEGORY3 is usually expected to be called Demo.
Site code
Add some icon for NEW runs, showing "Rate me!" on mouse hover.
Add ability to hide publications by certain rating cutoff.
If you wish, I can scan through the thread and tell how many + and - posts were there for each of the above.
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Samsara wrote:
I believe it was considered, but unable to be handled at the moment. It would require a lot of time and effort and site restructuring and it's still likely that people aren't going to be receptive to the change.
The only thing that'd require site code is changing how hiding works, and some names/icons. Moving can be done by users.
BTW, I disagree that there must be runs that are in both tiers. It indeed requires code changes and doesn't seem to make any changes we can't live without.
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There actually is some kind of a consensus in this thread, between those who support this proposed system, I even posted pseudocode of how would judgment work, and how well the old submisison question would fit. It just never was really considered by anyone capable of applying these changes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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niamek wrote:
Hello,
Somehow I made a TAStudio file that contain no movie system Id. I'd like to know if I can add it manually to try to recuperate what I did yesterday?
I can't repro how I did it sadly. I just did my movie, then saved.
This error happens for me when when the project gets corrupted during saving, so you won't even be able to open it and change the id. But please try to reproduce, this is an annoying bug I don't understand.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It's a reference to the Knuckles all rings run, this pic happens in the first level. How do I improve the rings anyway?
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I suddenly start agreeing that we do quite some things for promotion already that would not get lost even if the tier system is changed. And the unpromotion (hiding) feels better if left for the user to set borderlines. However, there will be exactly the same borderline cases when making judgment, since if some run's entertainment level isn't quite enough, it's either weakly accepted, or rejected. But those aren't the reasons why we want the changes anymore, are they?
Oh, and as I said back then, with such system we won't need 2 polls or entertainment poll. People can understand absurd goals, people can understand sloppiness. If they vote yes on an any%, they consider it optimal. If they vote yes on a side goal, they consider it entertaining. But I have no proof for that yet, other than it's how it used to work for years.
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Gave up on the rings.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Radiant wrote:
I can see how it theoretically has a different purpose than that, but practically speaking it's pretty obvious that doesn't work.
How exactly it doesn't work? It's not a list of movie that we recommend newcomers to see first? What's the point of removing starred movies from there and putting there moons instead? Finally, the list is solid, we do not move the flag from one current run to another whenever we feel like, it's just based on some factors that make sense for this list.
- runs that were several times mentioned in the "what blew your mind" thread
- runs that do things that are farthest from intended
- runs of popular games
- runs with obvious tas-only strats
- runs where it's still comprehensible what's being done to the game (being popular helps, as people have knowledge of how it's intended to be played)
Of course we would pick them from Stars, as star movies are those that meet most of the above.
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dunnius wrote:
Also with the movie rating and the entertainment poll question, I believe there is voting bias from if one likes or dislikes a game. Entertainment should be based on how the TAS plays the game, not the game itself.
Rating system even remotedly close to perfect is plain impossible:
feos wrote:
I don't think it's even possible to take ratings seriously, since indeed they make little sense, when only the people who actually TAS a game know exactly how technical its runs are, and people who see a game for the first time might be not entertained at all and give 3s for a well done movie (I use to do that a lot lately). These 2 don't seem to be improvable, so no matter how you change the system, it'd still make that little sense.
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arkiandruski wrote:
They are to be judged solely on whether or not anyone can find any way to improve them. If improvements are known, they are not eligible.
Yeah, and what is so good in that? And what problems does it solve exactly?
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Xipo wrote:
Is there any other option make all the game(NES/SNE/PCE/Genesis.....) the same windows size?
Setting custom resolution in Display config may work.
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niamek wrote:
Hello programmers,
I have a small question, I'd like to know what is the current state of TAStudio concerning creating a TAS movie? Is it safe or not?
I'm asking this because I got a bug recently with TAStudio while recording a N64 run. So I'm not sure if it's usable or not.
Niamek
It's mostly safe, but make backups often, in case you do something far from expected. And if you report bugs, figure and out exact and reliable reproduction steps to help fixing it properly.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Replying in order of reading, those may be already answered/resolved.
moozooh wrote:
This is mainly a continuation of the above, but an obsolete movie deemed RFN should retain its flag unless it actually suits the new movie better than the old.
Makes sense, but how do we decide which one is actually better for newcomers?
moozooh wrote:
RFN and Star-tier have a very strong overlap that tricks people into thinking of recommended movies as a secret better-than-Star 4th tier. I believe this isn't exactly a sensible, let alone desirable situation. They have to be high-quality, well-received, and show the advantages and benefits of employing tool-assistance, yes. But at the same time they have to cater to the circumstances, mindset, and behavior of newcomers rather than your core audience.
The intent is (again) blowing the mind, giving the best emotions first. But being comprehensible also matters, thats why MM2 is used instead of MM1. As for overlapping, how can a movie that is expected to be so good it should blow your mind be not a star? "Secret better-than-Star 4th tier" - any flag can be imagined to be that, but flags are flags, tiers are tiers. But yes, we pick "best stars" there.
moozooh wrote:
Imagine a person who got here by following a link found on the first TAS they've watched, or just randomly on the internet. At this point they proceed in one of the two ways:
1) they search for one of their favorite games directly or watch whatever captures their immediate attention on the front page, in which case they will likely keep missing the Newcomer Corner list entirely until they're no longer newcomers (or until they leave the site for good);
2) they actually locate the Newcomers Corner first (which I don't believe happens all that often, and that is a problem for another discussion).
Log out and visit the main page.
moozooh wrote:
0) they should be run past actual newcomers to see if the idea works at all;
1) game itself should be aesthetically pleasing or capitalizing on nostalgia value enough so that seeing or hearing it isn't a detriment to the experience;
2) they should be reasonably short to avoid boredom or fatigue (5–15 minutes is ideal, 15–30 okayish, anything over 30 minutes is seriously pushing it—you don't want any of the items on the list skipped due to not having enough free time to watch something they don't yet know if they'll enjoy);
3) they should clearly identify as tool-assisted without having to make a second guess, and as such portray many TAS-only scenarios showcasing the required precision;
4) they should contain various different strategies/tricks/glitches to avoid feeling like it's the same thing going on repeatedly;
5) they should contain fun/clever/impressive stylistic decisions wherever possible.
[2320] SNES Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "100%" by Baxter, Carl_Sagan & NxCy in 1:59:35.12
This is a great example of failing criterion #2 spectacularly.
I don't disagree with your examples of desired movie length, but they are arbitrary, and this run was picked because many people asked for it to be NewcomerRec, and it was (and is) the highest rated movie on the site regarding entertainment. So yeah, this one is no mistake to showcase.
moozooh wrote:
[2741] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by Aglar & marzojr in 26:53.06
There's a very good reason why my entertainment rating for this branch started at 10 with nitsuja's first attempt and gradually arrived at 9 by now: because every single trick is being gradually replaced by zipping and Tails-facilitated OOB travel. They are nowhere near as interesting to look at as good old TAS-precise platforming. In my opinion, this flag should either be moved to an earlier iteration of this branch or to some other run of S3&K or S2 entirely (although by this time all Sonic games are just one huge zip).
I agree with your take of the run (or the category?), but it was mentioned in the mind-blowing list for enough times to see it has its value. However, I don't see much of a problem to figure out the run that's currently more appealing. I starred GBA Amy for being so zip free and comprehensible.
moozooh wrote:
Compared to its predecessor, I find it barely acceptable at best. It's very hard to follow without intimate knowledge of the game, boss fights take either too long or too short, much of the soul usage variety is gone, one of the best fights is skipped, and general character progression dynamics is all over the place. It's most certainly a TAS for the fans in the first place. It also contains at least two known unimplemented improvements as well as a couple more potential improvements. I believe the RFN flag should either remain at the previous movie or be transferred to the warpless any% which has almost none of the problems while containing virtually all the same benefits as this and the warpless all-souls.
Once again picked due to many mentions as a mind-blowing run, and I think people were mentioning different iterations of this branch, so yeah. And I'm open for anything that feels better than what it currently is (so I'll just keep reading).
moozooh wrote:
It's among 20 most entertaining runs on our site, and it's not because of the fan base or belonging to some huge franchise, so I believe it makes perfect sense to showcase such a playaround for newcomers.
moozooh wrote:
[2676] NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless, walkathon" by Mars608 & HappyLee in 25:19.23
Has any newcomer ever watched all of it? Not only the flag; the existence of this movie and the fact that a shorter branch was sacrificed for it confuses me. The warped version was a neat novelty run and was good because in the six minutes of its runtime it could show pretty much every known way to overcome the in-game obstacles without pressing B. What exactly is being accomplished by having a movie four times its length escapes me. It doesn't contain four times the tricks. It doesn't even contain four times the amount of situations previously considered impassable without B. It can't allure even all the people who love Mario, judging from the sheer number of rating votes on it and the fact that it has the poorest entertainment rating of all SMB movies at 7.2. 7.2 is barely above average and probably below median as far as site-wide rating statistics goes.
Hmm, I might revisit my thoughts on this run. I remember there was some IRC discussion about it, but don't remember anything of it. I starred this movie instead of warped in the first place because it contained way more cool things that the latter did. And most importantly, warpless+walkathon was long considered plain impossible, and then MUGG suggested a solution, that does look very TAS-only, with all the setup and execution. Sure, real-time people may try and reproduce, but just like RTA-ing Gimmick 100% (props to Cyghfer), it's still a geek-only challenge (so far).
moozooh wrote:
Some movies, including a few obsolete ones, that I believe are quite fit for being recommended for newcomers.
I'll read the whole thread first.
EDIT:
moozooh wrote:
At some point we had a TASVideos showreel, which is actually a really fucking good video that is hard to find for some reason.
What I still don't get is why it is important or significant enough to be chosen as a goal, because nobody has explained that at any point.
Because of one of the reasons runs are picked for: doing things farthest from intended. 0-star is picked for that, RBO is picked for that too.
People wrote:
Staff discussion dwelled on a list of 10 (probably 15)
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Before I read the entire thread, there is an actual thread for this flag.
The idea behind the flag is to mark some categories that use to break people's minds. There was a thread on that regard too, and the ones that had the most "votes" got flagged. The only run that didn't come from that thread was Gimmick.
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My script uses the feature of recent fceux to force emulator's lag flag, so you will basically have legit lag values in savestates too, overall it operates exactly as real lag counter.
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Archanfel wrote:
A на счет здоровья не слишком сильно перестарался? Оно ведь во 2 уровне еще даст о себе знать.
Да я ваще без понятия. Забыл, что его не восстанавливают.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I tried, and I only found this, which is still quite close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JILEV9OLPqA&t=1273
Included a few seconds before he says that, to make it at least understandable what it refers to.
Question mark feels like some undefined pessimism, and I see no joke there, while "pfff whatever" is careless glitch abuse, hinting that literally whatever can fit.
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Desyncs on mednafen bios, syncs on Sony PlayStation BIOS (U)(v2.2)(1995-12-04)[SCPH-1001 + DTLH-3000].bin
CRC32: 37157331
MD5: 924E392ED05558FFDB115408C263DCCF
SHA-1: 10155D8D6E6E832D6EA66DB9BC098321FB5E8EBF
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I haven't tried yet, but what if we use this as one of the answers?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Gave up on the rings.
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Такой вот пробег вслепую. Потом все тщательно сравню и сделаю уже полноценно эту комнату.