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EZGames69 wrote:
What’s actually happening here is this submission is making judges realize the rules had a loophole due to the way it was phrased.
Because games typically do not give you the option to skip levels without the use of a password or cheat code, and up until this point nobody really TASed any such game that had a level select at the beginning, or at least ever utilized it thinking it didn’t make sense to use.
Just because something isn’t explicitly mentioned in the rules doesn’t mean it’s an automatic endorsement. The movie rules have been adjusted many times over the years as new case situations come up. The rules regarding level select only ever mention passwords for skipping to levels because there hasn’t been many cases where games didn’t require a password or code to access. This game does, so a clarification has to be added to eliminate that loophole.
This is a good summary.
The very top of Movie Rules wrote:
This page describes the requirements that submissions should meet in order to be published. These requirements are always subject to change as the site continues to grow.
It's impossible to have rules set in stone and to expect users to remain happy about them. So because users are higher priority for us, we always try to make our rules make the most sense. And to accomplish this, we rely on the best thing we have available: community consensus.
We discuss things together with our users, we brainstorm, we come up with solutions, and we implement those solutions if there's a balanced agreement about it. Which means it meets expectations of different sides. This is basically what I've been doing here for years.
Recently the site started trying to be even more user focused, and I contributed to that trend as someone who has previously contributed to brutal legism. Hearing out the community, refusing to talk down to users, is what we officially want to be doing.
This means that our policies are meant to keep evolving, because that's the only way to remain relevant as a community based site. As is the wording of those policies. Simply because it's never clear to everyone, and can't cover all the possible scenarios in advance. We've embraced policy tweaking, because if it's done timely, there won't be a crisis from them getting outdated and irrelevant. And yes we don't use logical loopholes when figuring out new policies, or their wording. We only apply a change if it makes sense to themostpeopleinvolved.
Community consensus is quite obvious in this thread. Majority of users consider skipping ahead via non-gameplay features a bad idea. This is objective reality, I'm not judging what it good or bad. It's what people think, even if their opinions are subjective (they are meant to be, we're working with subjectivity as well, we use it to figure out trends).
So, again, changing a policy only happens when there's a common agreement. It never happens on a personal whim. Policy wording also gets changed when there's agreement: the point of those changes is to more clearly communicate the spirit of the rule. For example some practice that that has always been in use, and nobody really had a problem with it, but as EZGames69 mentioned, it may not have been codified as clearly as we may have wanted.
This is not a minor thing and not an excuse. Our original Movie Rules used to be constantly growing, and they were constantly getting more and more complicated, intimidating both users and judges, not making it easier for anyone. And nobody attempted to fix that issue until Samsara volunteered and, you guessed it, fixed it based on discussion and agreement, as always. Not only that, but we now have a dedicated thread for rule change suggestions!
Now I should review the clause in question.
Historically, old Movie Rules used to have 2 clauses that reflect the intentions:
No skipping to the end with a password
The point is to demonstrate how quickly a game could be beaten if the player had superhuman abilities; skipping major sections of it with a password defeats the purpose.
Cheats, debugging codes, and Arcade continues are not allowed
This includes any in-game codes[1], input sequences such as the Konami Code, as well as immediately accessible hidden menus.
Note that if the feature in question is suggested explicitly by the game itself or mentioned in the manual as a normal means of playing, such as level restart shortcuts in the Legend of Zelda or Metroid, it is usually allowed. If the code is not used but the features it provides are accessed directly using a glitch, it is also allowed.
[1] When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools. Codes are considered secret if the game never tells them to the player: neither through official documentation nor during gameplay.
Since then, we've loosened the rules on in-game codes severaltimes. But the general rule about skipping ahead was not changed:
The spirit of those rules is that in-game codes need to add content to be accepted, not remove it. Then they result in unique gameplay, therefore they are worth having a speed record in Standard.
It's true that the way to skip ahead in this hack is explicitly mentioned by the developer as a feature, similar to "level restart shortcuts in the Legend of Zelda or Metroid". But note how we're approaching in-game codes differently now, by allowing them on a different basis than it being explicitly mentioned by the devs.
There's also a point that pressing B is not a password. But is it any different in what it does, compared to level passwords in other games?
Some games preserve your state to some degree, so you can use them to simulate in-game saves. Other games give you level passwords after you've completed those levels, but without saving what your character has collected in the game. Other games may have a level select menu locked behind an input combination. There are also probably games where you can pass a launch argument to start in a certain level. In all those cases, the game simply does not care if you've actually completed anything ever. You enter an in-game code, boom, you get somewhere.
In that sense, there's no functional difference between entering a 6 char password and hitting a single button. Especially when we know that on some markets, pirated games we pre-hacked before they were sold, to add some trivial cheats, for example level select by hitting the Select button, or infinite lives if you hit Up+Start. Those are still in-game codes. Simply because there's no in-game way to do it through gameplay.
The point of the rule is not to only ban passwords that skip ahead, but to ban all kinds of in-game codes that skip ahead. And because it was never pointed out, the wording was not clarified.
Note that whether a code is told to us by the game itself or by its documentation, is not very important. If a game tells us a password that makes it much easier, it doesn't automatically mean we should use it for speed advantages. On the other hand, we don't need game docs to tell us about warps or secret level codes: we just access them like an omniscient creature, because it makes speedrun sense to do so, directly.
There's also a point about similarities between warps and level select right from the title screen.
An obvious difference is you don't use warps to start the game at a certain level. The very meaning of the gaming term "warp" is that it takes you from one in-game location to another in-game location. You need to already be playing the game, dealing with its gameplay directly, to be able to access the warp zone and to use it. And since there's substantial difference between using and avoiding warps, we traditionally publish both categories.
This is not the case with level select, because gameplay is simply missing when you start from a farther level. So since level select doesn't substantially change your routing and the feel of the challenge, but simply removes it instead, it was not traditionally published as a separate category.
HappyLee, I tried to address your points in this post, but if this thread happens to remain locked, you won't be able to reply here. I won't be deciding whether it should remain locked or not, but if you want to discuss my arguments, just send me a forum PM.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'm still not sure. If the run was optimized for maximum score first (as it is) and then for minimal time second, how much shorter would the movie be, roughly?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Awesome stuff, huge thanks to Gawrit for the commentary too! Voted yes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I mean isn't this what fastest time as a secondary goal means? You maximize the primary criterion (score), and then whenever it won't sacrifice the score, you also optimize time, no?
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c-square wrote:
That said, fastest completion time is not a secondary goal of this run, so I don't think it matters in this case.
Wait doesn't it aim for speed at all?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Levels 5 and 15 look slower than the human record. Is that correct, and can it be helped without breaking everything else?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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We can make libtas auto-pause for a while using a lua script I think.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
However, I did not find the Platform: ... syntax documented anywhere. I discovered it by downloading and inspecting a few LTM publications. The places I checked were:
Done. I have no idea how we missed this initially.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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PearlASE wrote:
Time to enter. The 999 timer only applies to the first boot
Okay you won't have to provide nvram, you'll only need to provide a movie that generates it, as a verification movie. We already do this for DOS games you have to install for several minutes. And we'll attach the verification movie to the main publication. Just don't skip any actual game.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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PearlASE wrote:
Raiden Fighters, on it's Japanese romset (and many romsets) require you to wait through a 999 tick timer on the first boot, a pre-packaged nvram file would skip this timer.
Is any kind of pre-gameplay required? Or is it just the time it takes to enter gameplay?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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PearlASE wrote:
Raiden Fighters, on it's Japanese romset (and many romsets) require you to wait through a 999 tick timer on the first boot, a pre-packaged nvram file would skip this timer.
How long does it take in real time?
PearlASE wrote:
feos wrote:
You can reassign libTAS keys however you want.
Not the libTAS binds, but the keys used in MAME. Using control for fire and alt for bomb is very awkward, especially alt for bomb causes issues with window priority.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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PearlASE wrote:
1 on 1 off ideally, Is it possible to make it user configurable?
Should be.
PearlASE wrote:
Also- on the topic of controls and NVRAM; is packing an NVRAM file with a movie file allowed as Raiden Fighters may require it.
We just need a way to recreate it on our end. For example through a separate movie. What is nvram needed for?
PearlASE wrote:
Also can I somehow use a non-default control binding for mame?
You can reassign libTAS keys however you want.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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PearlASE wrote:
Hi, I want to know the feasibility of being able to submit an input file (movie) that utilizes the autofire plugin of MAME for libTAS.
The consequence of using it is the file would not playback on full default settings, and 2 or 3 small configuration files must be downloaded before being able to sync. However, getting these files in their right place is as easy as downloading them and placing them in their correct directory. It'd work similarly to an NVRAM file.
The reason I ask is because manually tapping the button even frame by frame is frankly horribly inefficient to me, its not the accuracy that matters in shmups but rather the movement and positioning of my shots, so with what I've mentioned above, would this be permitted if the process is as easy as I've made it out to be?
I'm thinking of trying to reproduce the autofire functionality in libtas through its lua. Which patterns do you need?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Removed the post because GameMaker is non-free (at least the tier that can generate a Ubuntu launcher). We'll look into getting the official thing to generate the needed file.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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HappyLee wrote:
Technically I think if someone improves the code further, it can make Mario move faster and further reduce lags and waiting time. Will that obsolete this run?
Sounds possible, though such a hack would raise the same questions as this one - about accessibility and preservation.
Fortranm wrote:
I wonder how a TAS of that bootleg hack from that multicart whose rom can be relatively easily found that I posted earlier would look like. If the result is somewhat similar [...]
I don't see any similarities.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I was surprised by how obscure this hack is. Google only finds tasvideos and some video hosting sites, they all link directly to the IPS file, acmlm's site doesn't have an index page since 2009, speedrun.com or any other communities don't know about this hack.
It's probably obvious why nobody is interested in this hack outsite TASing, because it's mostly unplayable in real time, unless you've practiced a lot. But doesn't that make it even more worthy of a TAS? I think this hack is hilarious and it does provide some new challenges in the SMB1 universe.
But we have this rule and I don't know what to do:
ROM hacks must not be overly obscure. If a hack is known to GoodTools, ROMhacking.net, SMW Central, or some other well-known database, that usually means its quality is decent and it won't be completely lost in the future.
There must be a publicly and readily available download link to the hack's patch file on the web. It should be easily found through Google. Having to join an online community (for example on Discord) to get the file is not allowed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I beat you by 29 frames in the first level by using a strategyhttps://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638082759640614536
I clear out the lower ones because they are closer, so I can shoot again sooner, and while I'm doing that, the top ones shift downwards closer to me. Can probably be improved further by also using planning.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I don't get how to load this game in bsnes. I have it selected in core prefs but reloading the rom makes it stay on gambatte. My rom matches that in the movie header.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Wouldn't that result in upscaling by the factor of 4, as opposed to adding 0-3 pixels so it becomes the nearest multiple of 4?
Here's how I do it in avisynth:
Language: avs
# rounds an integer up or down to the nearest multiple of mod
function ForceModulo(
\ int number,
\ int mod,
\ bool up
\){
return (up \
? (int(number + mod - 1) / mod) * mod \
: int(number / mod) * mod)
}
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Just remembered another thing: x264 wants dimensions to be multiples of 4.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Are the level layouts in Novice different from those in Tower? I couldn't find any info about it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
