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Mothrayas wrote:
feos wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
What is the speed-entertainment split for, then?
All the problems that post lists are resolved if we move from tiers to metacategories.
What is the purpose of a speed-entertainment split?
Ummm, are you in a loop? The point is (and has been from the start of the "Vault Tier Discussion" thread) fixing all those problems.
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There's a setup for libtretro cores in bizhawk, the fba one was reported to be working, so you could use tastudio on this game. But you'd have to figure out the setup yourself, by reading bizhawk docs on the wiki and asking questions in its forum section.
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Mothrayas wrote:
Maybe quantify their productivity in some other way. For example, it may be possible to keep track of statistics for game resource/article edit counts, uploads of scripts or other relevant files, etc. But I think player points should be for the actual TASers only. Otherwise the term gets diluted too much.
I think being a part of the run with your research is a good thing, having some separate currency that would be additional to player points is also interesting, but I'd just replace it with a single rank (Researcher) without assigning researcher points, because such points would 1) compete with player points in prestige, lose that battle and end up being meaningless (you can't evaluate quality of help by mere quantity), 2) be faceless, due to not being tied to games that bring those points, unlike if researcher is added to a team.
I'm not sure what Samsara means though, being a part of the team or just getting those points by site database juggling?
Mothrayas wrote:
These are all other ideas than a speed-entertainment split. What is the speed-entertainment split for, then?
Right, you've never read my response to you. Here it is: Post #421751. All the problems that post lists are resolved if we move from tiers to metacategories.
Mothrayas wrote:
And by "unpromoting" Vault runs, that does promote Moon runs relatively compared to Vault movies, which is precisely the point. There's no difference between promoting one or unpromoting the other, as there is no absolute rate of "promotion".
And I said unpromotion, because we don't showcase Moons any batter than before the tier system, we simply hide Vault. It sounds like it makes sense, but the problems it causes are heavier than the benefits it brings.
I remind, that speed-entertainment split is not ambiguous or arbitrary: all "fastest possible" and "full completion" runs go to Coins, if their submissions are optimal, all the rest branches go to Moons, and published if they are optimal and entertaining. Stars are cherry-picked from both.
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I'd prefer to hear counter points to using C#. It's interesting to follow which one's benefits outweigh the other's.
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Mothrayas wrote:
I think this devalues the idea of "player points". If you did not actually participate in TASing a game, you should not be receiving player points.
That might sound solid, but there are cases when a researcher helped to move the TAS to an entirely new level of optimization. We want to encourage researchers, because research is mandatory for a really good run, but very few people have the skill to dive into game internals and develop scripts based on that.
Mothrayas wrote:
I am against any idea that splits the site into speed and entertainment regions. It ruins the original concept of the tier system, which was devised to let outstanding runs get more exposure, and only means you get two 'halves' of the site that would be more or less equal in the hierarchy, which means there is no point to splitting them in the first place.
Just to address, Stars were supposed to remain, as were all the flags, one of which is newcomer rec. There can also be a list of best rated movies. So you still get 3 ways to promote good runs. Right now all of these can be used, but the rest of the system doesn't promote Moons any better than they were or could be promoted, instead it just unpromotes vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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You don't really have to look for reasons of actions done by insane people.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Well then, I don't think open bus is emulated.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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At least not in this section.
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lsnes
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Wouldn't I have to do all the ifs by address again to determine which one to call?
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zeromus wrote:
Try not creating a 64K delegates. Reuse a smaller number.
Please elaborate.
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Invariel wrote:
You're applying the RTA definition of "game start" to a TAS, when you should be applying the TAS definition of "game start", which is "power on".
Wiki: MovieRules wrote:
The movie must begin from console power-on
This is art, you can't tell me where I should consider it started. This is a sport, hence all the obsoletion thing, but it's also art, so it must appeal to our aesthetic taste as well.
Even for a sport, we don't consider better menuing an improvement, gameplay itself must be improved in the first place. Does it not mean gameplay is what we want to see TASed? We want to see unintuitive solutions applied to that, this is why this "problem-solving" thing meets so much feedback and motivates people to continue their efforts.
Invariel wrote:
feos wrote:
Also, "game end glitch" using arbitrary code has obsoleted non-ACE "major glitch" category at leasttwice, based on the first point, as long as all of them aimed for speed.
Invariel wrote:
There have been documented cases where ACE has obsoleted gameplay, but those were not decisions made arbitrarily by the judges, and instead came out of intense discussion on the fora by the community.
Yes, I covered that.
My point is that it's the current standard, and it will happen as many times as needed. "Should this 'game end glitch' that uses ACE obsolete that 'game end glitch' without ACE, or be a separate branch" is not a question anymore. It was published separately once, with "GT code/game end glitch" run, but only due to its superior entertainment value. It was obsoleted by a regular GEG afterwards anyway.
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Invariel wrote:
As was recently demonstrated in Super Mario Bros. 3, the input "exploit(s) the workaround code to avoid the conflict between the DPCM and the game controller" (thanks, ange_, on IRC) and jumps from the title screen to the end credits. While this doesn't follow the conventional definition of 'play', it does follow the definition of 'superplay', as set out by our site. The game is turned on, input happens, the game's completion state is shown. Pressing buttons as quickly as possible, thanks to sub-frame input is what "a god player would do". Should that run obsolete 100%, or any%, or low%? No. Should it obsolete ACE? Probably, because the setup is different, but the end goal is the same - get the game into a state where it accepts controller input as code (instead of as input within the defined input handler subroutines) and jump to the ending scene. Is it null%? No, as it completes the actual game.
First, "game end glitch" is considered any% over here (even though we retired the term from the site definitions), because it's "fastest completion". Also, "game end glitch" using arbitrary code has obsoleted non-ACE "major glitch" category at leasttwice, based on the first point, as long as all of them aimed for speed.
Second, I didn't mean "game hasn't reached its 'completed' state" when suggesting null%, I meant the game has never been played, it hasn't even entered the first level, where the actual gameplay starts, it just skipped to the end right from its start hands down. This is technically impressive, but it does not do anything at all impressive to the viewer. Even ACE SMB3 and SMW got some appreciation when people realized it can be done by a human too, though it's still not that entertaining, yet it still has something to watch. Remember?
Wiki: WelcomeToTASVideos wrote:
We make these movies because they are entertaining to watch
In the DPCM glitch case, there's nothing to look at, the game doesn't even get close to when the player starts his progression. The credits are legitimately triggered, if you look it it technically, but there's no progression that is associated with completion by nearly every person who knows about games. That is the scenario I called null%.
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Anty-Lemon has read my PM, that's all I know :D
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You know what? It all sounds like we'd have to postpone this until the actual runs are submitted (not sooner than in half a year, it kinda depends on whenever I implement the feature and some other stuff I've planned).
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Warp wrote:
What is wrong with "FCEUX input file"?
I dunno, it's an excessive addition when all the rest on the publication page are also files, but we don't add "file" to each of them (since it's silly). They are all files -> input file doesn't need that addition, but without it it's just odd, let alone inaccurate and ambiguous.
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Yeah, there are cases where this thing can be used throughout all the run, that is otherwise completely normal. But once you have absolute control over a game, it doesn't matter what you do with it, it's kinda out of serious competition:
#4252: Masterjun's SNES Super Mario World "11 exits" in 08:07.53
See the judgment note there.
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And then URMOM
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Warp wrote:
I have to acknowledge that the question is difficult. If we wanted to define Vault in such a manner that runs accepted to it retain a sensible amount of gameplay, how would we do that without the rules governing this becoming overly arbitrary, complicated and ridden with complexities and endless lists of exceptions? It's not an easy question.
It already has a whole bunch of exceptions, whenever the game isn't suitable, though those exceptions have also been fine tuned by staff. Yet another one won't probably make things harder.
Warp wrote:
There is certainly value in glitches that utterly break the game and perhaps even skip the entirety of it, but it may be problematic if that's the only published version of the run.
On one hand, it would have only one run if it's what it deserves in terms of entertainment (there's no chance any Mario game is doomed like that). On the other hand, we still accept both any% and full completion, "no completion at all whatsoever" is not what one would be looking for when he comes to a speedrun site.
I can put it another way. There's a difference between zero and null. Zero is a valid number, null is absence of any valid entity. So, regarding completion, we have any% (fastest completion), 100% (full completion), 0% (lowest completion), but do we want to have null% (completion is for pussies) competing with those?
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Warp wrote:
I think this is something that should be decided pretty soon, because it's very probable that such runs will start being submitted at some point.
They will be.After the next fceux release.Warp wrote:
So what happens if a run is submitted that just skips the entire game? I think that technically speaking it fulfills the requirements of vaultable any%, and thus it will replace any possibly existing run of that game. Which means that there would essentially be no speedrun of that game, for all intents and purposes.
Is that really what we want?
The quick answer that comes to mind first is usually "Whenever a game affords more entertaining branches, they will be in moons". But in this particular case, I'm not sure it's gonna work best, because, as it was already said quite a few times, there's no way a 2 second run with no gameplay beats the fastest gameplay-based run in any other aspect than pure time. It's faster, but it's not better. Should I repeat my Demo tier mumbling again? :D
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moozooh wrote:
For me, a mistake-ridden playthrough that uses entertaining tricks and glitches and tries to be efficient and innovative even when it fails to be the quickest is still more of a speedrun than something that skips the entire game.
Before I read the new posts, I'd like to say that I agree with that statement.
Re: broader audience.
The point of gaining popularity is not (ideally) about how many morons you please, but about how sane your methods are, since those are what you use to create art. Methods are related to the rules, when it comes to letting some form of art grow. For example, common sense tells us to preserve pieces of art, and, if needed, to classify and showcase them, so that more people could potentially enjoy it. Regarding TASing, this is what our policies are for: they classify, they showcase the records (since it's kinda cyber sport too), they help more people get educated and involved, they help to keep us motivated to achieve better results, the list might be quite large.
If that system is working well, the community naturally grows, because the rules are finely tuned, and they can handle big amounts of content without quality loss.
The reason this thread exists, is not the fact that someone is just paranoid and scared, but because the recent trend opens insane possibilities, and if we fail to handle the situation, the world changing before our eyes might kill some of the fun we've been having here for years.
This is the last thing I want, so a few years ago I insisted on making the unobsoletion system work: we don't want to lose content just because it was unlucky to get beaten time-wise before Moons appeared. So runs that have been beaten that way got a chance to provide enjoyment again.
Similarly, we handled the situation when all the branch names were changed retroactively before proper discussion; that lead to a serious mess, but we made it work in the end, developing the principles (or improving the existing ones) of how it should be organized and marked.
The two above examples show how it can all collapse if we're not wise enough. But if we can handle it properly, it will function for years. And they show how important policies and classification are for a form of art (that is also a cyber sport) to evolve and to survive in the changing world.
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I wonder how it would sound if the site label changes.
FCEUX movie - sounds fine.
FCEUX input - doesn't work without the word "file". Do we really want to sentence ourselves to using a bigger construct, that isn't perfectly accurate either?
FCEUX replay - well, it replays input, producing gameplay replay, it replays subtitles, and it includes whatever it needs to make that replay guaranteed, as sync settings, and then probably other overhead that's not required but is nice to have.
Despite of more people liking "input", it's inaccurate and complicated, overall just as badly as the word "movie". "Replay", conversely, solves most of the problems in my eyes.
moozooh wrote:
FWIW, regardless of how we call the actual input/replay/whatever files, we can still refer to our publications as movies (which is arguably a more suitable context for the word, considering how the publications are presented).
Agreed.
ais523 wrote:
@Spikestuff: an encode on YouTube also contains the notes, game information, author, rerecord count, and subtitles, in addition to allowing players to watch the movie. (So it doesn't contain all the things you mentioned, but it does contain most.)
It's a video encode, so it's arguably still a movie, unlike the emulator file.
@moozooh: you forgot the torrents :) But yeah, all in all it is called a publication module, so whatever it contains is a part of it. But the link still relies on the word "movie", and I don't think it should change.
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jlun2 wrote:
GBA/DS
Both have emulators linked on that page.
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