Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
After reading the submission thread I can say that this is the original goal:
Complete as much as possible, as long as it's entertaining.
It's clearly not vaultable, hence it's clearly not full completion, nor 100% by any objective definition. I see how misleading the "100%" branch label is now.
So, is it "max%", "high%", "maximum completion", or "high completion"?
"high completion" sounds strange, as it's not used for any branches so far, and I'm not even sure it's real English. But it doesn't really tell anything either.
- High? Okay. How high though?
- Nobody knows. Somewhat high.
- Why is it considered Hight enough then?
- Nobody knows.
"maximum completion" is informative, now we know that the goal is maximizing completion. So we just need to mention in the description that the run only aims to complete things that are entertaining to watch. Clear and accurate.
"max%" doesn't work, because there's no percentage in this game in any form.
"high%" doesn't work for the same reason, and also because it's not descriptive.
Memory wrote:
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
Technically, the only really sensible branch would be namely "Max completion". Because it is really a run aiming for max completion for teh win.
Something along these lines is probably the least arbitrary we're going to get it.
We add a comment in the movie description that it's not actually maximum possible completion, just maximum currently submitted to TASVideos. We obsolete the moment someone submits a decent run with higher completion.
Would a run with less completion but also less arbitrary (and less boring) also obsolete this TAS?
If we get a run that completes a comparable amount of things while being more entertaining, it can obsolete it. Doesn't have to complete the same amount, nor more, nor less. Just comparable. And it must be more entertaining, since it's our end goal here. See how low the rating of that run is now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
All walkathons need to mention their warp usage, as per recent guidelines addition. Even though warped walkathon can be considered speed-focused, it has an entertainment-focused counterpart now, warpless walkathon. To prevent confusion we label both by their warp usage.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Does the game even have warps?
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Also, there are many Super Mario World movies, including hacks, that lack an appropriate label, but we also have to decide if going for the "warps"-"warpless" naming or "low exits"-"max exits" naming
When we aim for fastest speed while avoiding major skip glitches, we don't care how many exits we end up using, so exit count is irrelevant here. So "warps" SMW (and hacks) should remain "warps". But when the goal is getting all exits, we should use "all exits". And when all can't be used, yet we want maximum, we should use "maximum exits", like in the fixed "small only" branch.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
LOL
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Ah okay. I'll fix it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
I mean the same actions that you can do on the SELECT screen you can also do on that easter egg screen, and their result is identical. So it is functionally a SELECT screen with some changed graphics.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
I think we should only use "maximum X" when it's actually as much as you can get given the restrictions imposed externally. I'll need to reread the submission thread.
If it's not a result of restrictions, just an arbitrary pile of things one felt like achieving, and that pile is reasonably huge, I suggest enforcing "high X" for such cases. Or some better wording.
Then a run that obtains more, but is equally entertaining, would obsolete it. As well as a run that gets less, but is more entertaining. Because the current movie has quite bad rating.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Yeah it can be pretified after you make a pull request.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
When a run uses a combination of internal and external goals, we need to find out which of them it prioritizes, and which of them it only happens to have as a result of the primary goal.
If it explicitly and independently prioritizes more than one, and each of them is chosen for the sake of unique entertaining content, each needs to go into the label.
If it aims for fastest speed for the primary goal, and doesn't particularly care which other goals happen to be encountered, such extra goals don't need to be mentioned in the label.
The primary, external, goal in that run is "no powerups", the secondary, internal, goal is "maximum exits". It could get more exits if it didn't ban all permanent powerups (including "growing up"). This boils us down to:
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "no powerups, maximum exits" in 1:18:23.22 by PangaeaPanga
And saying in the description that the run bans permanent powerups that I listed above.
Opinions? Staff and other members agreed that this label is good (at least as good as "small only", but most of us think that it's better: more accurate and still not overblown).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
I have one last question. Would that run be shorter if it used more exits?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Niamek wrote:
Why no just tkeep small only? Same with all the others movies like walkathon.
The details are already in the movie descriptions. Should be enough.
Why revise? Why fix? Why contribute? Why care? Same with everything one would bother doing. Reality is already better than shit. Should be enough.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
So the extra exits are forbidden because of those 2 forbidden techniques? We don't want to list the rules in the labels, only critical differences and unique goals. If there's a cherry-picked set of tricks that are forbidden to make it more entertaining, we could also list them in the movie description (if we haven't already). I'd need to know if those extra exits are sacrificed for speed or for entertainment.
As for reading the discussion, here's the result everyone seems to agree with:
Post #468111
I think it's important to talk to actual people who run this game before putting labels, so please try to help us keep it accurate and sane while improving the system.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
BrunoVisnadi wrote:
4 more exits are obviously possible (the switch palaces) and they are forbidden in this category.
Why? Can you tell the rules and goals so we understand better what to put in the label?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
I've had a talk with Really_Tall (lasting for 2+ hours) about SM64DS. Turns out, the same main techniques that are used in the current TAS branch to cut down the time by more than 50% are also used in RTA 100% run. They just don't save so much time there, because all stars need to be collected.
https://www.speedrun.com/sm64ds
"Any%" there is what our current TAS aims for.
"8 Star" is what the first TAS did. Obsoleted. by the above
"50 Star" is an arbitrary set of restrictions that only allows some major skip glitches. Probably not even publishable here.
"80 Star" bans all major skip glitches. Also called "intended any%", feels like our trunk/blanck branch on the first glance. Publishable.
"150 Star" allows them again, and also requires all stars. Publishable.
And a few more arbitrary branches.
So if someone makes TASes of other branches, we're only likely to accept 80 stars and 150 stars alongside the current branch.
Overworld/Castle skips are the thing that makes any% so different and short. They are activated by some OoB techniques, which are in turn used in all the less glitched runs as well, just not to that extent. The only branch that completely bans this is 80 stars. Not even 100% run does (I repeat that because it's very notable imo).
What I'm getting at, Castle skips are the same thing as zips in Sonic, BLJ in sm64. Using them is common. Avoiding them is not. So we will label an 80 star run something like "no Castle skips" and remain accurate, as well as correct judging by our system.
Bottomline: The currently published runs of SM64DS are trunk and don't need label.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Click on frame column while holding Shift to select a range of frames.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Where can I read which pokemon games are considered the same game by tasvideos standards?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
I personally found it super funny. If I happen to be judging this run, I'll ask other staff as well.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Zeupar wrote:
I am willing to do so myself if there are no objections.
I agree, just post here what you've changed so we could discuss when needed.
Zeupar wrote:
I personally like the current approach of listing the individual glitches, since it gives more information.
Would you like listing 4 at once? 5?
My take is that we either haven't fully figured out what such glitches do (which would let us use common labels on them), or we're not ready for potential mess. Or both.
Yesterday I also rewrote the whole Structure chapter of Publisher Guidelines, summarizing what we've discussed here lately:
http://tasvideos.org/PublisherGuidelines.html#Structure
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Thanks for motivating me :D
I made my own video.
You can safely remove yours now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
That one is too similar to our "already standard" glitch abuse:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#HeavyGlitchAbuse
Major skip glitch movie class at least tells what's special about it:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#MajorSkipGlitch
So while the latter is a subset of the former technically, their difference can at least be comprehended from descriptions of those classes. And we use specific labels for the latter too. So they won't be confused for the former. With "glitch abuse" branch they will. It also doesn't tell that several independent glitches are used at once (which is why I have this question).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Can you post a video so we get at least some feedback? If not, I'll encode it later.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Nach wrote:
I don't have good answers for you at the moment.
We probably won't be accepting every variation. We should work with the experts of the appropriate games to figure out which branches we're likely to accept and boil them down to clear names for the casual players.
I don't mean that they can co-exist, we can only have one major skip branch published. It just can happen to use several glitches that are all major and all save tons of time. But they can all be special and weird, preventing uniting them under one descriptive label. We just can't infinitely stack them in the label. So we need a way to group in one label several independent major skip glitches that we can't otherwise group under existing terms.
If Crash Bandicoot: Warped (JPN) "item glitch, gate clip" is beaten by a run that uses a few more unique major skip glitches, that'd be an example of what I'm talking about. Just remember how "glitched" label was able to unite indefinite amount of major skip glitches in itself. We need a new version of it. Something like "various glitches", except that sounds crappy.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
