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While it's a funny idea, I don't think bizhawk's prereqs will install on PCem.
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We goofed by fully trusting the authors. This is not about blame, but about policies that weren't perfected, seeing the actual reasons of problems and trying to resolve them.
I noticed one more thing. In a film about Deep Purple, the band said that managers operate in a certain way. They say "we succeeded" when the band succeeds with their help, but say "you failed" to the band when things go wrong. I guess I made the same mistake here: I said "we" when it was about how well the game was (supposedly) researched, and then I said "the author" when it turned out that it was sloppy. Sorry about this.
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Yes, please redo this so that we don't pretend this movie is properly completed. One of the reasons it was accepted in the first place is that we trusted the author's research. And it appeared to be sloppy. I think we'll have to ignore this factor in the future.
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Ugh, this engine sound killed it for me. Just unbearable. Maybe people who know the game can enjoy this bike's crazy jumps, and find this a cool concept demo, I'm personally voting No.
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This movie was recorded from unpaused state, so in order to get it to sync, put the game into "roms", start the emulator, launch the game, and while unpaused, press Ctrl+R to get the replay movie dialog, and pick the movie. To dump avi, start the emu from command line with this command, and then do the above.
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Mitjitsu wrote:
What's the hold up with this submission, why is it taking so long to get published?
It requires upstream dolphin's avi dumper code to be merged into the dolphin version it was made on, otherwise av desyncs can NOT be fixed during dumping.
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Of course. We don't care how long it is if the relevant part is more optimal than the current run, and the rest of it is just as optimal.
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GenericMadScientist wrote:
I did bring up another issue. Say someone wants to do a NG+ TAS on the Japanese version. My understanding is that alongside the TAS, the user would have to submit a movie file creating the desired save file. However, an optimal save file for FM NTSC-J requires use of the Pocketstation accessory, and its infrared capabilities. BizHawk has no support for the Pocketstation, and to my knowledge no Pocketstation emulator currently supports the infrared stuff. Am I right in concluding that an NG+ TAS with an optimal file is at this time just not allowed in any way under the TASVideos rules?
If the game can't be properly emulated, we can't accept a TAS of it, not even a verification movie. Because we can't allow working around this by allowing cheats in verifications.
GenericMadScientist wrote:
While my mind is on this, I'll bring up one more dumb thing (disclaimer: I have no intention of doing this, nor does anyone else to my knowledge, but may as well mention it). Someone could want to do an FM NG+ TAS with the cards obtainable without the Pocketstation. Strictly speaking, the optimal way to do this involves buying the Perfectly Ultimate Great Moth card. This costs 999999 starchips, and the only way to get starchips is to win 5 a time from a duel. A back of the envelope calculation suggests a movie file creating a save file with this card bought could be around 5 billion frames long. It's very possible a bot could make this movie, but I wonder if BizHawk would start breaking at this point. What would the policy be on this?
A 2.5 year long movie? The answer is, it won't work. If you want to know where it dies, just run the fastest core with all the output turned off and see where it breaks.
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Here's what I found.
Difficulty seems to be address $66. And it seems to affect gameplay differently for values below 5 (in mode B). Values from 4 to 0xFF don't break sync of my test movie.
Things I see at that difficulty:
Now, difficulty does overflow/reset after 0xFF. But the above looks very much like unique content to me. You can check how it plays after starting the game at mode B and cheating the address $66 to 04. All levels become fairly different, and also clearly harder.
Difficulty increments after each time you beat the game. When you start at mode A, difficulty starts at 1, and for mode B, it starts with 2.
So I think for this game, a movie should complete 3 loops of mode B, so difficulty goes 2, 3, 4, and then it freezes gameplay-wise, even though the value of the address keeps increasing after new loops.
Code that runs every frame to determine object spawns:
It checks if difficulty-1 is above 3, which indeed means difficulty caps out at 4.
NOTE:
If all the content of the difficulty 4 appears earlier, then it'd instead be the point to stop the movie after. I just haven't tested every difficulty thoroughly. But this video gives some idea, even though it's for mode A.
Link to video
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Using any unrelated disk to swap with breaks the rule that demands the game image to be real.
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#GameMustBeReal
If you use a different image and make it interfere with the original image, fully or partially read by the console, you're no longer playing the same game anymore, you're playing two games, or more.
If you can make it work on the console (and be accurately emulated) without using any other images, we can continue this interesting talk.
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GenericMadScientist wrote:
My example is Yu-Gi-Oh! Forbidden Memories for the PS1. There's a video of someone performing the disc swap at https://youtu.be/ltwvh_yZbGk. It's not in English so I'll explain. You swap out the disc and put in another one before the end of the duel, and when the game tries to load your drop it bugs out and gives you the 'drop' 000. When this happens, the game takes the bottom card in your deck in the pre-duel menu and morphs it into the card with an ID 256 greater.
This can be used to obtain cards that are otherwise unobtainable, e.g. Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon, the most powerful card in the game. This would probably speed up the Any% TAS, and would allow you to use said card in an NG+ TAS on the NTSC-U version. It can also give you glitch cards with an ID above 722 (the maximum ID of a normal card), and some of these are very powerful.
Sounds like you need a blank disk image as a part of the multi-disc xml, correct? Does this even work in the emulator?
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Samtastic wrote:
I have a question regarding BIOS options for Abe games. When me and Dooty made the original runs, they were done using SCPH1001.bin which gave us the best sync options for the game. Lately I have been in contact with ViGadeomes and he says my Maximum Casualties update I'm working on this year works better with the SCPH1001 oriiginal BIOS. Now, Ultrastars3000 told me that SCPH7003 is a Japanese BIOS and the original USA PS1 console was SCPH1001.
I tried reading this once again, and it makes no sense. You were using 1001. You were told that 1001 works better than 1001. Then you were told that 7003 is Japanese, and 1001 is American. And?
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Nach wrote:
Okay, how would you like to improve it?
The only thing that would let us use rating anyhow is a way to create movie lists based on rating. All you can do right now is simply sorting the list you already have, and there's no reason to expect your list is lucky enough to relate to tech top in any way. Right now you can use several movie tokens to create lists, and none of them inherently outputs tech top.
The closest you can get is http://tasvideos.org/Movies-Popular.html but that uses combined rating above 8. You can not pick which rating you want to be above 8, and you can not pick a different cutoff. So you end up with a list of 270 movies that take annoying time to load, and then you have to manually edit the link to sort them by rating, because the Filter module doesn't have an option to only show Popular. Like, if you just get to the Popular list and then use the Filter to sort by some rating, you'll get a list of a few thousand movies instead: Popular token will be lost.
If we had tokens allowing to show only movies with tech or entertaining rating above X, then both could be used in all sorts of creative ways. Lack of this custom cutoff for entertainment rating is compensated by our promotion based movie system: Newcomer-rec > Stars > Moons > Vault > Gluefood Delight. It's easy to find an already limited list of entertaining movies. It's hard to find such a list for technical movies. I described here how hard it is to obtain info about our most technical movies.
Nach wrote:
My statement on the matter is that while there is some actual link in what occurs between entertaining and technical because one often fuels the other, the actual link in results is of a temporal nature.
You can show me all the lists you want, that does absolutely nothing to debunk my claim of the rating link being of a temporal nature. If you want to debunk my claim, you must show that there is a causal link between the two which cannot be broken. Anything else is arguing in the wrong arena.
BTW, before I get too far with this, please explain me on an idiot-proof a rubber duck level why the link here is temporal. Maybe if I see how you learned this, I can learn this myself and we'll be able to skip some unnecessary part of this talk.
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GenericMadScientist wrote:
Say a game doesn't have support for any disc swapping, but disc swapping bugs the game out and lets you get otherwise unobtainable items. Would it be allowed to:
1. Use this to set up a NG+ save?
2. Use this in an Any% TAS?
Do you have an example?
Samtastic wrote:
I have a question regarding BIOS options for Abe games. When me and Dooty made the original runs, they were done using SCPH1001.bin which gave us the best sync options for the game. Lately I have been in contact with ViGadeomes and he says my Maximum Casualties update I'm working on this year works better with the SCPH1001 oriiginal BIOS. Now, Ultrastars3000 told me that SCPH7003 is a Japanese BIOS and the original USA PS1 console was SCPH1001.
I feel like maybe it's to do with the games themselves. If you play them on a different BIOS, you will get different sync results? Well, I am making a 100% Exoddus TAS Update on the original BIOS which will make things easier to sync against the 2014 run. There are plenty of new tricks to see in later places like Mudanchee and the Zulags.
I don't understand what you're asking.
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Nach wrote:
My statement on the matter is that while there is some actual link in what occurs between entertaining and technical because one often fuels the other, the actual link in results is of a temporal nature.
You can show me all the lists you want, that does absolutely nothing to debunk my claim of the rating link being of a temporal nature. If you want to debunk my claim, you must show that there is a causal link between the two which cannot be broken. Anything else is arguing in the wrong arena.
My plan is to look at how users actually use the system, so we could talk about real problems instead of our idea of them.
But please give me an example of a statement that'd debunk your claim if it was true. Without such an example I'd have to rely on my own fantasies about this "causal link". I mean, I'm not even sure what kind of information I need to provide here.
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Nach wrote:
I don't understand.
If a user wants to find top tech for NES movies, they can. I don't see what's missing.
It is too hard to use, this is what I'm saying. I went as far as to say that it's "impossible to sensibly use", partially because of how hard it is.
Nach wrote:
Your suggested method for looking into this only serves to perpetuate the falsehood.
What you see today changes tomorrow.
Picking data for the experiment means you misunderstand the issue at hand. It's not about data, it's about the system itself.
My point was about how the system is being used, and how usable tech rating is. Saying that tech top list will in future significantly diverge from top entertainment is yet another claim that can't be checked. I say that these top lists will remain very similar forever. Because of how people use tech rating (I'll still get to this).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Yes, I know that we can sort by rating and create such links. But to make this option usable for tech top, one has to find movie lists that are already small enough. Using huge movie lists in order to check the tech top takes too much time and site resources. Using smaller lists implies that the user already looks for something very specific, so sorting by tech rating doesn't change the result too much.
You see, the site uses the tier system that's based on entertainment, we promote Moons over Vault, Stars over Moons, Newcomer-rec over Stars. These serve as means to shrink the movie lists, so they can be observed with little hassle.
There's nothing similar on the site to make using the tech top nearly as easy. But even if there is, we return to my point that the tops are almost the same anyway.
Nach wrote:
Nothing agrees with your point because you have two unrelated things which are constantly shifting.
I posted a statement that you declared false. We can only check if it's true or false using actual data it was talking about: movie lists sorted by tech and by entertainment. If they are mostly the same, my statement is correct. If they are significantly different, my statement is wrong. I asked you which data should I pick for an actual experiment. You simply declared that it's impossible for my point to be correct. Therefore you don't seem to want reality to be checked. In that sense, your claim about my statement is unrefutable. Do I need to explain what that means for this talk?
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Nach wrote:
I don't understand how you're waiting for an answer when I already provided.
Quote? How exactly do I make use of the information about technical top?
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
Because all the top entertaining movies are also top technical.
I've mentioned this a few times already. This statement is false.
OK, so you want me to come up with actual lists and compare them. Which movie groups would make you agree with my point?
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Nach wrote:
The only thing I've really been hearing from you that it's impossible to give with the criteria you defined or use in the limited way you consider personally using it.
I asked you how to use it, and I'm still waiting for the answer. As for giving, I'll look at other criteria mentioned on the page and examine them in my next post.
Nach wrote:
As for your three points, I don't know what 1 means. I don't find how it's misleading just because it's nearly entirely subjective. All ratings anywhere provided by human beings is subjective at least to some extent. Whether people rate properly or not, be that tech or entertainment is also a general issue that applies everywhere. Humans aren't perfect. So what?
1 means the site doesn't let you easily obtain the information about top tech movies exclusively. This info is your argument for having tech ratings in the first place.
And it's misleading, because people rate based on their idea of the questions asked, not based on the actual questions. I'll get to that.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
You questioned the probability of being entertained by the most entertaining movies on our site, but you skipped the question about what a user is more likely to watch.
I don't know what you mean by this. At this point in the exchange, I'm not even sure if we're speaking about the same topic.
I already repeated this point several times. When someone's goal is learning TAS-only techniques, they would rather watch movies that are entertaining and technical, rather than movies that are only technical. Therefore, only having a list of the most entertaining movies is enough for that purpose. Because all the top entertaining movies are also top technical.
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Nach wrote:
I don't know what you're getting at here. I said people may want to watch something technical so we have that information. You say you found those movies with low entertainment rating boring, so didn't. What are you trying to prove by having different objectives than the one being discussed?
I'm saying that tech rating is impossible to properly give on the scale of the whole community, and it's impossible to sensibly use, because
1) the site is not designed for that,
2) it's inherently misleading due to being mostly subjective, as you already said, and also
3) a user will most likely just pick a high tech run that's also entertaining, and disregard the one that's only high tech.
Nach wrote:
The list may or may not be the same.
I can go and check once again, for any group of movies you want. It is mostly the same.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
The question. Why would anyone even want to care about technical top if entertaining top is already all they need to see, and is guaranteed to also be enjoyable?
How is it guaranteed?
You questioned the probability of being entertained by the most entertaining movies on our site, but you skipped the question about what a user is more likely to watch.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
Exactly because technical rating is nearly entirely subjective, it's nearly entirely useless.
Why is subjectively informing people what other viewers find entertaining or technical useless?
I never said that entertainment rating is useless. And the tech rating's uselessness is addressed at the top of this post.
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Memory wrote:
Nach wrote:
However if you want to watch something which makes good and frequent use of the essence of a TAS, you have the technical rating. If you want to make a TAS yourself and want to get an idea what technical things you could incorporate, you can go watch a couple of games with a high tech rating, and then see if anything there can apply to a TAS you want to make. It's another way of learning aside from our "how to" pages.
Here's the thing: I don't find what TASes that "make good and frequent use of the essence of a TAS" useful information to know. It comes across to me as limited towards more common techniques and strategies of TASing and biased against the unorthodox and new. If you want to watch a prototypical TAS I guess the technical score would be useful then but otherwise I don't see the value.
Even if you wanted this information, watching a run that's super technical and also very entertaining 1) is a better investment of your time overall, and also 2) makes it easier to notice incredible TAS-only features one would expect from a low entertainment but high tech run.
Another thing I touched in my previous post is that you rarely need to watch something just technical. Most of the time you'd be checking specific movie classes, and then you'd be picking either runs that are entertaining (see above for reasons) or of the games you know, because it'd also be easier to notice the TAS-only features.
Damn, even the very tier system only cares about promoting entertaining runs the most. Not because they can be super trivial. But because being highly technical is also entertaining, if the game is entertaining in itself.
feos wrote:
I'm disproving the point about amount of work, and I explained how similar it is to "hard work", and both are impossible to sensibly evaluate.
To add to this, there's indeed no way to know how much work stands behind a run. If one wants to read the author's notes about it, it becomes evaluating the notes themselves. Because one can either put all the irrelevant information pretending it's technical and relates to the amount of work (and outright lie too), or not tell enough stories about all the hard work, and it automatically makes it look like the work was not there.
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Nach wrote:
Memory wrote:
The audience doesn't need to know technical rating, entertainment rating alone is really all they need to know to decide whether or not to watch it.
If you just want to see something entertaining, indeed all you need is entertainment rating. However if you want to watch something which makes good and frequent use of the essence of a TAS, you have the technical rating. If you want to make a TAS yourself and want to get an idea what technical things you could incorporate, you can go watch a couple of games with a high tech rating, and then see if anything there can apply to a TAS you want to make. It's another way of learning aside from our "how to" pages.
How does this work? I felt like checking which NES runs have the highest tech rating. So I opened all NES movies and after a minute that it took to load I was able to sort by tech, which also took time. Things I saw there were mostly ones that already have the highest entertaining rating (because people simply rate Mega Man two tens), and then a few things like these, near the top:
6.2 entertainment6 entertainment5.7 entertainment5.3 entertainment
Okay. These movies are supposed to be insanely technical it seems. How do I know what's so technical about them? I need to check movie classes. Then I decide which of them I actually want to watch. I watch them. Get insanely bored and drop after a few minutes. Or watch to the end, and rate 3 for entertainment, because it was annoying to sit through.
Compare this to simply checking the most entertaining movies. The list is about the same, but there's no boring garbage at the top anymore. Are these insanely entertaining movies by any chance less technical than those boring ones I linked? NO WAY.
The question. Why would anyone even want to care about technical top if entertaining top is already all they need to see, and is guaranteed to also be enjoyable?
Nach wrote:
You're disproving your own point.
You're correct an outsider cannot know how hard it was. Therefore how hard it is is not sensible criteria.
Nope. I'm disproving the point about amount of work, and I explained how similar it is to "hard work", and both are impossible to sensibly evaluate.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
As I said, it's impossible to enforce any global scale that is supposed to resemble something objective.
We don't enforce it. I already said it's nearly entirely subjective.
Exactly because technical rating is nearly entirely subjective, it's nearly entirely useless.
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Nach wrote:
You cannot disagree. We literally have rules for how to use the technical rating. Wiki: VotingGuidelines.
The rules don't mention it depends solely on how hard it is to achieve, but rather it's several factors. Those factors included things like amassing knowledge or were bots use to optimize parts of it which may be related to difficulty, but it's not about the difficulty.
note that this list is not comprehensive, and every TAS should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis
This explicitly leaves room for additional factors one feels like considering.
Wiki: VotingGuidelines wrote:
Amount of work: How much work was necessary to make the TAS? For example, was a considerable amount of background research (such as route planning or extensive RNG reverse engineering) necessary before even starting the run?
This is exactly what I'm describing. Why would anyone invest serious amount of work into something that's not so hard to begin with? People work hard and work a lot, because they are not satisfied with their achievements. You may have to invest tons of work into pulling off a trick that saves a lot of time. But some people (like Tompa or MESHUGGAH) invest tons of work into things that only save one frame. This is amount of work. And it is how hard it was to achieve.
And the problem with it, it's impossible to understand how much work actually stands behind a run. Less so when we're talking about a game that obviously looks complicated. One doesn't know the game too well, but they notice something that required a lot of work (reportedly). Yet for some crappy simplistic game, with tricks that required also a lot of work, no one will give a damn. Bias.
Nach wrote:
People are free to make up whatever scale makes sense to them for what technical qualities they consider important for a TAS. But everyone should use some kind of global scale which is not rewritten for every single game.
As I said, it's impossible to enforce any global scale that is supposed to resemble something objective. People are too different, unless the question is "Is this number greater than 10?", but even then some will give nonsensical answer.
Nach wrote:
I don't see how combining things solves anything.
Right now you have 182 variations. 91 for each criterion. 10 fractional parts for everything other than integer 10. It is absolutely impossible to enforce any global scale with all the variety of people's perceptions, opinions, knowledge, experience, moods, sanity, reasonability, etc. The simpler the question is, the more reasonable and sane the answer is. Objectivity is out of the question given all the variety of people and options they have. So it has been suggested in the past to only ask people how much they were entertained, which would imply a subjective answer to a subjective question. Yet I'm sure that when you just give too much options, you force them to invent their own scale and their own criteria that only make sense to them (and probably their friends?).
The submission poll asks a question with just tree options. Yet it's completely impossible to take the answers in the poll seriously when we're dealing with a borderline case. Why do we have to rely on the posts? Because the poll is almost useless. And even then posts alone love to trick you into thinking Moons, and then it gets 4s for entertainment when it's published.
So we actually have several possible decisions:
- reducing the rating to just "+/-" like youtube,
- reducing it to the same traditional "Yes/No/Meh",
- reducing it to traditional for real world movies 0-10,
- reducing it to 91 only for entertainment,
- reducing both factors to something similar to above, and finally,
- not reducing it at all.
Of these, I like 0-10 the most, because it would be similar to something already well known and very similar in nature: you can enjoy all sorts of aspects of a motion picture, you can basically invent your own scale, but when you see a movie with rating 8+, you know it's something nice. And movies with rating like 5 are not really worth watching.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Now, difficulty does overflow/reset after 0xFF. But the above looks very much like unique content to me. You can check how it plays after starting the game at mode B and cheating the address $66 to 04. All levels become fairly different, and also clearly harder.
Difficulty increments after each time you beat the game. When you start at mode A, difficulty starts at 1, and for mode B, it starts with 2.
So I think for this game, a movie should complete 3 loops of mode B, so difficulty goes 2, 3, 4, and then it freezes gameplay-wise, even though the value of the address keeps increasing after new loops.
Code that runs every frame to determine object spawns:
