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To TiKevin83. Yeah, we need to discuss all the other options as well. If eventually resyncs are not allowed, we'd have to think about other options anyway, so why not now? Also, proper discussion helps to remove all the noise from the problem, so in the end we can come up with a simple list of points anyone could assess without having to read everything from start to end. What I see here so far is our need to acknowledge accomplishments that happen on the TAS scene. This is why I think your case is identical to the Demo tier question. As dwangoAC said yesterday in the GDQ thread, not allowing those accomplishments to be represented among regular movies feels like we don't really care about them. On the other hand, us caring about them doesn't magically turn into us accepting those movies. As I said, the entire staff crew needs to be convinced. Which is why we would need to come up with simple, obvious, logical, and compelling points. I'll ponder your actual post later.
andypanther wrote:
I have to disagree with your position on this, feos. We should accept new movies as an improvement based on better accuracy alone, this motivates people to improve this aspect of TASing. The idea that "we don't know if this better accuracy is perfect accuracy, so it can't be counted" just seems plain wrong, for the same reasons why I disagree with the rule for vaultable highscore runs having to have 100% proof that they can't be improved. You can never proof something is 100% perfect, such proof should never be required. We don't follow this mindset for normal speed records, so why in these instances? And of course, there's also the problem with TASes that are optimized to SMB1-levels, we should be able to replace those movies if necessary, even if no gameplay improvement is found.
I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying it's something entirely new that we never did before. And I'm saying that policy-wise, it's seen as moot right now. If we want to convince people that it should be introduced, we should make it not moot. Which includes discussing all the other scenarios, and all the other reasons to acknowledge the TAS scene achievements. We obviously can have a rule "movies that are neither time nor entertainment improvements can be accepted to obsolete if they feature accuracy improvements", but reasons to introduce such a rule are so far unclear.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Overall, I still think that the message of the site is highlighting optimization as a thing in itself. Another thing we highlight is entertainment value of the resulting product. Of course we heavily depend on emulator accuracy. But in cases when neither entertainment, nor optimality has improved, accepting such a movie means highlighting accuracy alone, as a thing in itself, which would be something entirely new. Again, this was always important for us. But accuracy is not what a movie can achieve. This is a side job, it's done by emulator coders. You can not "TAS accuracy". You can arguably compete in accuracy by tweaking movies. But like Battletoads showed, some things are just non-deterministic by nature, so perfect accuracy is impossible for movies. And better accuracy is not always real: a movie might get closer to console sync by working around some problem, but the problem itself is still there. In Battletoads, the RNG routine runs during all the idle CPU time, and tweaking the startup state looked like it helped with sync, but in fact, the movie remained non-deterministic and only synced by coincidence. DwangoAC had to hack the replay method really hard in order to replay the "game end glitch" movie on HRDQ. This yet again boils it down to "better accuracy" rather than "perfect accuracy". Console sync can be a coincidence too. So console sync can not be our "thing in itself" that we want to highlight independently. Which brings us to the same problems the Demo tier met: anything that we can not unambiguously verify as optimized and/or entertaining replay file, is moot when it comes to accepting a movie of it. See I'm not saying it's anything bad. But after all these years, there's zero consensus about what a Demo tier really needs to be: all staff members disagree, even the advocates of it disagree with each other. Lack of consensus is what can be bad. Lack of consensus is what I mean by "moot". We can talk about our ideas for several pages and still not advance. Even that is not the final verdict, and maybe we can have a consensus here. But usually, it takes a direction or a problem obvious to everyone, and only then people can agree on something. When the problem or the direction is not so clear, it's barely possible to promote policy changes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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TiKevin83 wrote:
Allow resyncs when a movie is to replace another movie from the same author(s). This sounds quite reasonable in any event; what's to prevent an author from retracting their old runs before submitting the new one to circumvent the resync designation? Unless you can't retract a run from the site.
Right, when talking about the author's decision to update their movie, there's still a valid question "Why?" that we need to have an answer to. The judge guidelines talk about avoiding meaningless publications since 2006. We had no reason to retract that requirement because it's always been a valid one. It just happens to be a bit vague, and it hasn't changed a lot since then. So the judges keep this in mind and always ask themselves, as well as the authors, why exactly do we need to publish a given movie. This movie we have here still answers "because it now syncs on console". You don't state that in the paragraph I quoted, you just mention the author's wish as the first reason. But the author has made a submission, so obviously they want a movie to be replaced. The very fact that a movie has been submitted can't be a reason to accept it. Therefore there has to be a more fundamental reason. The third reason is along the lines of "closer to being replayed on console". So overall, all we have is "better accuracy".
TiKevin83 wrote:
Allow resyncs when a known improvement is made to a core as opposed to resyncs across cores. This could tie resyncs to improvements in hardware knowledge better.
I don't know what's bad about resyncing across cores if they are comparable. I don't know what's better about resyncing within the same core as it gets better. This reason might justify resyncing a run after every new release when the core was tweaked to (supposedly) become more accurate. I don't think any of us aims for allowing that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Supporting custom rerecording workflows that only work on the per-game basis is not only extra coding, but also a whole new platform that needs to be verified against all sorts of abuse. In emulators, we can guarantee that no abuse happens. In internal replay formats, like Doom, not so much. Some games use replay systems that are absolutely unacceptable for us due to what they allow internally. Right now we all hope that Linux games become TASable with libTAS.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: The rule for accuracy resync submissions (Split from 6023S)
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EDIT: This discussion was split from #6023: TiKevin83's GBC Pokémon: Red/Green/Blue/Yellow Version in 1:36:42.94
There was a talk on IRC about allowing some exceptions. We don't have a real thread for this yet, but I just had a thought. Allowing resyncs to be accepted case-by-case does indeed feel harmless. But how do we actually make decisions on whether some movie deserves it or not? If the idea of acceptable exceptions is not clear enough, people will always say "why this and not that". Console verification is obviously a huge accomplishment, for emulation in general, for the science, for validity of TASes. But if you look from a judge perspective, how do we verify that it was indeed replayed on console? I don't know any of the judges that have a replay device. There's no reason to suspect this particular movie in not being console accurate, no reason to think the verification is fake. But what do we do if someone decides to fake it? We can't really depend on having a person around who is able to replay tases on console. We need to verify movies for optimality and being possible on console in principle. We can expect that from judges, and we require that. But we can't require verifying the console verification in order to accept something. Thoughts/ideas?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Trimmed the beginning, so that both videos start at the same actual gameplay frame. This screen is when it fully fades in. The difference in frames is due to different framerate. Real time is basically identical indeed. What we see here is an example of a movie that can't really be called a meaningful tool-assisted record. http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#MustBeClearlyDefinableAsAGameWhichHasAchievableGoals http://tasvideos.org/Vault.html#TechnicalRequirements
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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What to do with them is a valid question, but can you start with listing the pros and cons that you have in mind, that make it clear to you that we ought to do something about this?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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"Then"? If their gameplay is unique compared to Case 5, they can still be published separately. Checking how different it is will need to be done for each of the 4 cases.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=472319#472319 When one vaultable branch contains gameplay of another vaultable branch, there's no point in having both. Precedent: #5854: ThunderAxe31's GBC Toki Tori in 42:20.24
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The proper question is, is any of this gameplay already contained in the Case 5 movie? Because it seems to cover all the cases.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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You may cancel it if you plan to improve it soon. That way I won't have to reject it using all the new finds against it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Yes, the problem here is that we don't have an existing publication such a movie would be beating. If we did, it'd have high chances, but again, that's only a rule for Vault movies.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I read the manual closer and I consider this full completion. It just happens that for this game full completion is a separate case:
CASE 5: "The Big Sweep"

Touche would take a new approach. Rather than gather the evidence case by
case and prosecute Le Fiend four times, he decided to take everything on
at once. The whole city, the entire gang, all the cases and, of course,
Le Fiend. He rose early that day and took a deep, invigorating breath.
"Room service," he said into the phone, "please send up breakfast. What
is today's special?" The voice on the other end replied, "French toast."

PROSECUTION REQUIREMENTS:   All of the stolen goods and evidence in cases
                            1-4 must be found and returned for verification
                            at their place of origin. Le Fiend may then be
                            rounded up and booked at Police Headquarters
                            once -- and for all.
  STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS:   20 minutes
                  LOCALE:   Entire city, 248 blocks
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Ah, I see what you mean now. Yeah, if some conditions are identical between a VC version and that inaccurately emulated one, it might be used against a potential TAS. But I really hope that if you start at least some basic work on the VC version, someone might be encouraged to optimize it for real. Which mostly means, try this game out and have some TAS fun with it! Even if your final product is not optimized enough, it will definitely help overall, especially if you discover some differences from the mis-emulated version. The answer I gave here applies overall.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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For now there's no workaround for this other than reseting your DPI to 100%. But I dunno how it works on win10, which is the only OS this thing happens on.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Works on my end. Do you have some weird DPI settings? Judging by destroyed windows for markers and branches, you do. See this ticket: https://github.com/TASVideos/BizHawk/issues/1151
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This info doesn't help us fix it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This info doesn't help us fix it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Arcree2 wrote:
Hey. i want to TAS with TAStudio but as soon as I want to open any .tasproj files or save them, TAStudio crash. I have BizHawk 2.3. The error is in french and I will try to translate it. An exeption happened in a composant of your application. If you click on "Continue', your application will ignore this error and try to continue. '-10' is not a valid number for 'LargeChange'. 'Large Change' needs to be superior or *this stop here* And after this there is a huge text which I can translate if you want. Help me please, I want to tas again but everytime I try, nothing works x)
Upload it somewhere.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Since the Wii version is going to abuse bugs of the official emulator, it should play differently from the N64 version, even if you submit the movie for the extracted N64 ROM TASed with Bizhawk. The situation with the GC version would depend on the differences in the ROM itself compared to the above.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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So how do you affect the RNG here?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
The current unassisted word record for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time any% category is 17m 07s, made on the Wii VC version of the game. There's an unofficial TAS of the same category that's 15m 43s. This TAS wouldn't be accepted at tasvideos because it's done on a N64 emulator and uses a glitch (the so-called GIM glitch) that cannot be used in an actual N64 console without the game crashing (and the sole reason why it does not crash with the emulator is because of faulty emulation due to a faulty graphics plugin). This TAS, using the current any% route (ie. the same one used in that unofficial TAS), could be done on the Wii VC version of the game using the Dolphin emulator and, as I understand, this would be accepted at tasvideos. My question is: What if I were to create a TAS on the Wii VC version of the game that's faster than the unassisted WR, but slower than that unofficial TAS? Let's say, for example, that the TAS would be 17 minutes flat. Would it be accepted? It would break all existing official records (both unassisted and tool-assisted), but it would have known inefficiencies. What are the rules regarding this?
The run you linked depends on emulation bugs if I understand it correctly, so it's invalid by our rules, which means it won't be even compared to when a properly emulated submission is made. And Wii VC is legit when TASed with Dolphin, because Nintendo officially released those games bundled with emulators. Those are official Wii game packages, and we consider them legitimate Wii games. So the answer is, if your movie is optimal in itself, it will be accepted.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
I wonder that if I made a TAS of the Wii VC version of the game that's not optimal but still beats the real-time record, if it would be accepted. After all, one of the requirements for publication is that it must break all existing records (it would, since no better run has been officially published here or in the real-time community), but it's highly unclear to me that if there are known improvements whether that would constitute grounds for rejection. Assuming nobody else would be willing to make an any% TAS of the Wii VC version (which at this point appears to be the case), we would be in a strange situation where the fastest completion time that anybody has made would be rejected, but nobody would be willing to make a better one.
For Vault, there's an interesting rule that allows to accept movies that aren't too optimized if they beat some optimized Vault record due to a new discovery.
Wiki: Vault wrote:
In rare cases, there will be a sloppier movie that is faster than a more optimized movie due to the use of a major skip discovery. In this case, the faster of the two movies is preferred.
But in this case, we're not talking about an existing record published in Vault and beaten by a sloppier movie. We're talking about a game that generally goes to Moons. And it'd be a new independent entry for Wii, without obsoleting any current N64 TASes. So if your movie is obviously sloppy, which means, it's easily improvable in a lot of places, it'd be rejected. But by all means such a movie would be nice to have as a test run for future work!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If the screen is not big enough, it won't switch to a higher res with that menu.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Oh you know what. Linking to obsoleted videos from the ones that obsolete them, and having the obsoleted ones unlisted, would be identical to what we do on the site! The TVC updater needs to be fixed so badly! I suspect that if the updater part is fixed, some part of the code used for publishing will also be fixed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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