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SmashManiac wrote:
If TASVideos claims that a TAS beats the game when it really doesn't, then that's no better than endorsing cheating. Eliminating that is the most important benefit in my opinion.
First, "beating the game" is fundamentally moot for games without ending, so it's not like we have a run of megaman that beats half of the levels and we say that it beats the game. We made up rules for ending-less games, and those weren't fully applied, there's no official claim involved.
Second, the only other example of unbeaten games is single level movies. Those were allowed by the former rules, again no one is claiming such movies beat the game. It was just banned later.
Third, I don't know what relation any of this has with "endorsing cheating". Why "endorsing cheating" exactly, and not "stealing cookies", "fighting aliens", or "cooking pasta"?
SmashManiac wrote:
Re-judging should in general be very fast too, so I'm not seeing any issue here. Only the one aspect of the movie that was brought up by the claimant would need to be re-evaluated, not the entire movie again.
This means the same movie we rejudged a week ago can be brought up regarding some other aspect, repeatedly. Which, in turn, means that we'll have to rejudge each movie several times now, in addition to after every rule change. Everyone's dream.
SmashManiac wrote:
The only case I can think of a claim taking more than 10 minutes to process in this case would be if a rule change must be considered, in which case it would be beneficial to everyone to have the matter settled as soon as possible for future TASes anyway.
I don't know where you got "10 minutes" from, and I don't understand how rule changes are going to be worked around.
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Yeah we're not even starting to talk about crazy kinds of abuse like officially releasing a new version of the game that does secret shenanigans with such external replay systems that break the validity.
Emulation is the fundamentally right way of doing this kind of thing. Internal replay systems are worse, but tolerable. External replay systems are bad. But in order to determine just how bad (or not bad) they are, we need actual devs of those to talk to.
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Ah, the post isn't talking about custom game submissions, it's talking about the downsides of using "anything goes" to introduce verifiable, stable, usable game-specific tas frameworks.
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scrimpeh wrote:
I seriously don't think there will be that many custom game submissions they couldn't be handled one at a time.
I don't quite understand this sentence.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
I see your points.
But wouldn't the topic even without a staff-monitored list be beneficial? Even if it was only suggestions from other members, it'd still be a starting point.
I may be ignorant on this concept, but I don't foresee a ton of spam on suggestions.
If someone feels a particular game doesn't follow the rules, they are free to suggest it. Then it'd be up to whoever wants to redo the run to try to update the run.
Nothing would be needed from site staff on the front-end.
Then the impetus on staff/judges to re-judge the original would only be after a new run which attempts to obsolete the old one is submitted. Further, this re-evaluation of the original would only truly be necessary if the new submission was longer than the current publication (as a shorter run could just be judges by modern rule standards). The burden of submitting one such longer run would be on the author; to note in the submission comments why they feel their longer run is more up to par with site rules than the current publication. With this approach, the only additional work for judges/staff is on the back-end of a submission when the judging for a workbench item takes place.
I just feel that any collection/list (however it's generated) of sub-par games is a better launching point than not having a list at all.
No one and nothing has ever prevented any of that. I don't know why such a thread or a wiki page is still not there.
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Just so it doesn't die unanswered.
dwangoAC wrote:
The site itself is antagonistic (or at least passively unhelpful) by not facilitating any possible method whatsoever to submit non-standardized content.
The site has no will, it only does what we tell it to do. If we want to tell it to do something, it'd require a clear, robust, abuse-resistant, beneficial plan, people that would come up with it, people that would use the result, and people that would evaluate and judge the works people send us according to that plan.
dwangoAC wrote:
I recognize there have been endless and fruitless arguments about names for content like this and phrases like demo tier now have a terrible name as a result.
What exactly do you mean by "content like this"?
dwangoAC wrote:
I could care less what we call it, let's just please open up the submission form to allow for "Other" as the platform and remove restrictions on filetype matching and see what happens.
We already know what happens.
1000 submissions of cat pictures
100 submissions of clearly illegal pictures
10 submissions of subtly illegal pictures
1 submission of a torrent file that seeds 50TB of porn (it'd take a lawyer to check how much of that porn is illegal, and in which countries)
1 virus
1 archive containing 1000000000 viruses
1 bitcoin miner
1 elaborate exploit that turns tasvideos.org into a pro-ISIS site
10 legit movie submissions
10 sloppy movie submissions
10 movie submissions that subtly break the rules
10000 movie submissions that obviously break the rules
1 movie submission worth a star
1 textual description of a Half Life 3 TAS
1 replay file that is sent as instructions to make a nuclear bomb
1 instruction to make a nuclear bomb that is sent as a replay file
1 Celeste TAS replay file
100000 replays of novel internal game-based rerecording frameworks that do not sync
100 replays of novel internal game-based rerecording frameworks that do sync, but use in-built cheats
1 replay of a novel internal game-based rerecording framework that lasts for 40 days of pure gameplay
1 replay of a novel internal game-based rerecording framework that lasts for 400 days of pure gameplay, and that's a movie of a 3D game that only runs at 8K and only syncs if a person uses a 16-core 67.2GHz CPU, 80GB of RAM, Voodoo 2 GPU, and runs a Chinese edition of MacOS with a VM running Windows 10 on Mondays
1 submission of a sofa
1 submission of Singularity
All judges that quit the site
All publishers that quit the site
All tasers that quit the site
All admins that quit the site
All abusers in the world that join the site because it offers EVERYTHING now, and we have no one to check and reject
So it'd be tons of fun everyone here is fully looking forward to.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
This would not require re-judging
If a judge/mod/staff member agreed on a particular game/publication recommendation
Is it really so hard to see? Without staff member approval, this is just feelings of whoever is suggesting invalid publications. With approval, this is a re-judgment. Because how can a staff member approve this without re-evaluating everything? And potential infinite suggestion spam hasn't been worked around either.
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Now that it's properly split, here's the deal. We need people who understand the internals of Celeste tas tools well to describe its tas framework in details that are relevant to validity and abuse-proofing.
The game itself should be intact and impossible to affect through this workflow in any way other than via input methods it normally provides to the user. Savestates should be stable enough to provide for heavy usage without problems. Video and audio output should allow lossless dumping.
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Again, who is saying No explicitly?
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SmashManiac wrote:
I was thinking more in the lines of flagging a publication with a warning only when someone reports an issue that is confirmed valid by a judge, maybe through a dedicated forum or something like that.
This is still exactly what I argued against: it requires explicit rejudging, and it can result in reports flood. The only practical benefit I see is encouraging TASers to obsolete such movies. But I would say the cost is way to high.
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SmashManiac wrote:
I agree, but preventing such submissions because they require additional code analysis seems a bit extreme to me. Just my two cents.
Please list games that have 100% abuse-proof rerecording system that we explicitly prevent submissions of.
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Let my personal opinion not get in the way of productivity. I'll post basic info in the ticket you opened there. If their TAS support ends up being sufficient, we might make it an accepted emulator, at least for testing purposes (otherwise how will their TAS features get thorough testing, right?).
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Oh come on, just look at the list of supported hardware and software. DOSBox is a hack of a hack of a hack of legacy code of spaghetti code of code translator. Of course there can be aim for more accuracy... compared to no accuracy. But seriously, when the piece of host hardware is emulated as a whole, the games just run as intended. And not only games. When you're working with a dead code-base, there's not a lot of things you can achieve before getting sick of it.
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Hello. Please check out this thread instead:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20206
DOSBox (and, inherently, all its derivatives) is a disgusting useless piece of garbage compared to PCem, and PCem is the thing that is planned to be added to Bizhawk in the near future.
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Nice routing with all the warp tricks this time! Really impressive. Perfect warp spawns depend on the background, and the background can be manipulated to spawn sooner, just awesome abuse of this stupid mismatch between layout and BG/music.
Since warpless for this game now means completing as much as the game provides, and it's finally known to be longer than warped, warpless is also a vaultable category for this game.
The only thing to check would be whether the layout really repeats after this movie ends.
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This game can't be tased for real yet, but if it works on PCem, it has all the chances to become available for bizhawk in the near future. IIRC, it does work there.
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Challenger wrote:
Challenger wrote:
Probably I can finish in a few days. ;)
And nearly a week has passed...
I ended finding much more improvements than I expected. So, probably I'll finish this on next week or two. I saved more than 400 frames until now. ;)
How is it going?
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I wasn't answering that question, just clarified our reasons.
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Just to point out why we're suggesting this:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#GamesWithAdditionalLevelSetsOrGames"Playing a single episode or individual game to completion, or all episodes or games, is considered game completion."http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#ObsoletingAPublishedMovie"Movies for all games or episodes inside a multi-game or multi-episode game can obsolete individual movies that only play a single game or episode within the game. This is assuming that the combined movie surpasses all the individual movies that it is trying to obsolete."
The manual makes case 5 stand out as the only case that puts an end to the crimes this bad guy does, which is why I considered it full completion for this game, but since its gameplay is different from the other 4 cases, having all 5 in one movie is the best option.
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Yes please.
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Imagine we agreed to have a workflow for marking invalid movies. In order to determine their validity, we have to check them against all the existing rules. Basically, we have to rejudge them.
Now imagine having to rejudge everything after every rule change.
Now imagine that every day some dedicated person suggests old movies for rejudgment that they see as "probably not valid anymore check please".
Do we really have so many spare judges that have nothing else to do than checking every retroactive rule break 24/7?
To quote IRC:
16:43 <feos> now imagine someone ragequits over that post
16:45 <adelikat> speaking of ragequit, imagine if you unpublish someone's movie based on a rule change after the fact
16:45 <feos> oh yeah
16:45 -*- feos looks at circus charlie
16:46 <feos> but really
16:46 <feos> figuring our circus charlie publication is invalid involved fucking disasm
16:47 <feos> by all means let us start doing disasm just to make sure that no, some 15 year old movie is actually fine, we were mistaken by suspecting it
And I'm not even talking about all the unvaultable branches that were published because they got great votes, but then rating humiliated them. Rejudge from scratch just to say "sorry, we think this movie is invalid because the audience tricked us with their borderline feedback apparently".
All sorts of insanity, when it comes to actually unpublishing things.
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TiKevin83 wrote:
I also wanted to mention, I think it's important to look at the inverse of the problem presented here. If a new movie were to be submitted that is faster but relies on inaccurate emulation and does not play back on console, it would violate existing rules about taking advantage of emulation inaccuracy.
Not exactly. Relying on an emulator bug, where some trick in the game is only ever possible with that bug (see the recent discussion about VC Ocaria of Time) is one thing. Allowing a trick that in principle works on console, just has slight difference in timing or outcome (Post #465348) is another. We are fine with the latter.
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Maybe your config got corrupted? Always unzip each bizhawk version to its own folder.
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If such movies are hidden by being obsoleted by Grue (see Moth's link), then they aren't annoying anyone. Which means they will never be properly improved. Never sounds a bit less optimistic than after 15 years, doesn't it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
