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I think you should submit #1 and it has the highest chance of being accepted as a legitimate improvement over NK's submission. In the thread for this potential submission we could discuss whether this password corruption route can serve as a demonstration category for Moons. Like [2059] SNES Mega Man X "password glitch" by FractalFusion in 16:56.88 did.
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Why does the other player not spawn during the boss fight?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This?
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I don't see where it happens before than.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Why is the password required again? I don't clearly see the reasons from what I've read.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Omnigamer wrote:
I think the rules written in feos's post are fair. The only thing that would be good to clarify is that an image may not just be a disc image - other unique games might use special peripherals for physical media such as barcodes, pictures, audio waveforms, and more. Assuming that the emulator was suitably developed to interact with this content, they seem like identical cases to CDs.
I generally agree, but I can't be so certain in a rule with unlimited scope. I'd prefer to limit it to game images for now, and when something different appears, use the spirit of the rule, clarifying it if needed. Otherwise, it'd be better to namely list things whose input can potentially be used in a similar way. But I can't say "X, Y, Z, and anything similar". In some cases we might never need this limitation probably.
Omnigamer wrote:
All that aside, I do agree there should be more discussion about what constitutes secret codes. Using feos's interpretation, games that feature procedural generation also constitute secret codes in that the user has no knowledge of how the input (even if it's just game state) affects the end content. Most such games require you to exercise that randomization to complete the game, so they get a pass under the current ruleset. One such example is Syvalion on SNES, where the gameplay progression is randomized. I do not think it is fair, however, to force a playstyle when the game gives an option to exercise such randomization content or not. MR2 is an example that gives the choice of either: you can use the generation, or you can select pre-formed. You must choose at least one of the two, but either is viewed by the game as equally valid. You are required to get a monster; the way you acquired the monster is not important.
If we switch back to the way I originally viewed this problem, none of the staff members I asked thought that when a game is all about entering arbitrary codes, it should still be banned. Nach considered this a cheat code only without it being the main feature of the game, but as long as it is the main feature - it was decided to allow it. Yet I'm not sure whether we want to extrapolate this to any code at all. Just like the above, we can get to this when we find another game that has such a feature.
Omnigamer wrote:
-There are a few caveats about system architectures that should let you scope the rule better. At least for older systems, the size of a disc far outscales the size of memory. Any algorithm relying on data from a disc (or most any other secondary media) must only utilize a small subset of the data, or build a suitably small set of data by combining disc contents. In either case, the disc data used by the algorithm can be identified and specially crafted to create the desired outcome.
You mean we need to require only ever writing the relevant bytes to our hand-crafted image?
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Is it possible to avoid using the password? According to this post, there are issues with using a password that simply skips to a later level, even after having seen it, even after having visited/beaten that level.
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Cyorter wrote:
I have a doubt about a movie rule I read but didn't understand it clearly.
I'm attempting to obsolete a movie made by another user, but that current movie (for now e-e) is really helping me sometimes with some tricks, the other 50% of times is completely original input.
I read that if I copy some chunks of gameplay it can be credited, I got it, but I don't exactly copy the input, that current movie just let me know some of useful tricks for the TAS and then I do the tricks for myself.
Sooo... if you get tricks based of a movie by other user it must be credited as a co-author? Even if I don't exactly copy the input to my WIP.
I saw a submission that credits another user by something similar than this, but I'm not sure if I must do
Here's the WIP for let you understand better of what I'm trying to say (see Stage 5 specially)
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/49520731692274216
Maybe... any contribution of any kind that helps some way must be credited... Idk xDD
If you're not copying someone's input right away, only recreating the result, it's entirely your movie. It's also better to redo it on your own even when you're simply reproducing everything, because while doing so, you may suddenly find a new trick.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
And as much as you want to try to make the lowest tier seem more interesting to the general audience, that's practically impossible, as we as humans will always look at the lowest level as being "inferior".
Where do I say I want that?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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How many CD-based TASes have been console verified again?
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So in light of the recent improvements to the rules about full completion, we established that sometimes there's no easy label for a full completion movie, if the full completion criterion is not monolithic.
In [3774] ZXS Castlevania: Spectral Interlude "100%" by Noxxa in 34:33.12, the full completion goal consists of a lot of objectives, which all originate from fundamental in-game features and match all other rules. But the overall goal is still compound.
By the current publisher guidelines, there's basically nothing we can put in the label. Because "100%" doesn't appear in the game as any sort of measurement, and all the other goals can't be deduced to anything simple, meaningful, and accurate.
So in this case, when the community agreed to have this goal as approved full completion for this game, people also agreed that using the "100%" label here makes the most sense. The only other option was putting literally "full completion" as a branch label, by this was liked by no one.
Here's my edit where I describe how I see this situation:
After heated discussion we agreed that when the full completion goal for a game is decided by the community to consist of maximizing several independent units, each on its own, we can't deduce such labels to "all X". If the game does not use the term "100%" for something special, compound full completion can be labeled as "100%". When "100%" means something different in the game, there should be a new iteration of discussion to come up with a name that's not "100%" and still represents full completion.
So we consider the "100%" label iconic [for speedrunning in general] and use it when we have to, when we can. Changed the branch back.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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BTW, with this installation of lav filters and without ffdshow, regular avisynth doesn't want to load an ffv1 clip for me, even though ffv1 is checked in lav's video config.
As for h264, we can ship lav filters with bizhawk prereqs.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
The "arbitrary" disc image being generated specifically for the movie submitted, in effect, is being made non-arbitrary due to the nature of it's creation. Thus it's going to be allowed for vault?
Or is this just a site standard for any run of these types of game that utilize additional 'arbitrary' CD data, and they still aren't vault eligible?
Extra CDs that aren't named by the game are not allowed to be literally arbitrary, have to be generated for the movie's goals specifically. Then movies utilizing them become vaultable. Arbitrary extra CDs aren't allowed even for Moons. But this rule doesn't differentiate between tiers. I'll add a note.
Warp wrote:
Is that really a good criterion?
I'd say that if the run is boring to watch anyway, the most unambiguous rule is to not allow any extra data. This especially since allowing extra CDs would make the run non-console-verifiable.
You don't have problems with the sentence that goes right after that one?
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Monster Rancher 2
It is a PSX game that tells you to insert arbitrary CDs into your console's CD drive while the game is running. There is an internal prompt mode (the Shrine) when this works. The instructions tell to try as many as possible. And every CD spawns a new character.
Hires scans of the CD and the manual.
This game can be completed without extra CDs. Some of the characters you would be able to spawn this way can be obtained without extra CDs too. But the game itself was made to be so incredibly boring without this feature that no one who knows the game thinks it's meant to be played without extra CDs. Even the RTA community uses them in the speedruns.
Even with the extra CDs, the game is utterly boring to watch a movie of. So It's impossible to accept it to Moons. And there's been a lot of discussion among users and staff members about eligibility of such scenarios for the Vault tier.
Vault
The Vault tier requires clarity.
Vault rules wrote:
Goal choice criteria must be clear, non-controversial, and objectively verifiable. Vault requires clear cuts, so a movie with unclear goals that can not be agreed upon will be rejected.
Since day one, Vault is limited to 2 most clear and obvious movie goals, fastest completion and full completion. Game choice is also strictly limited to games that can provide for a meaningful tool-assisted record.
So the Vault rules are also clear and strict. They consist of clauses that can be objectively checked. And we don't make exceptions to the Vault rules. Because it'd violate the principle of clarity and blur out the borderlines, opening the Pandora box of unpredictable decisions.
Problem
If we allow arbitrary extra CDs for Vault, all sorts of crazy unresolvable problems appear. We can't afford trying every image in the world hoping that it results in optimal outcome. Also we can't make our movies depend on images that may be impossible to obtain. And we want to shut ourselves off dependency images that may cause copyright and legal problems.
If we disallow them, the community gets sad. Because I talked to lots of people, including judges and admins, and no one actually wants this feature to be banned from Vault.
On the other hand, when dealing with something that's arbitrary in nature, and trying to make it fit into a system with strict rules, you either have to throw the rules out of the window, or the arbitrariness. Or both. And since adding exceptions to Vault rules damages its main point, record keeping (you can't know if something in the Vault is even a record anymore nor whether it tries to be), we really have to sacrifice arbitrariness here if we want new non-standard content to be available.
Solution
When the game asks you to insert a certain specific image (in-game or through the instructions), it is considered a part of the game. And it can only be inserted when the game explicitly prompts for that. Inserting images that weren't asked by the game is not allowed.
When a game asks you to insert an arbitrary image,
1) you need to use an image that's been generated exactly for this movie,
2) you need to provide instructions how to recreate it,
3) this image has to serve the goals of your movie as optimally as reasonably practicable,
4) you need to provide insight on why you consider it optimal,
5) the method used to create it must be free and easily accessible.
Only such "arbitrary" images are allowed, and only when the game duly prompts for inserting them.
This rule is for all tiers.
This was approved by Nach and liked by judges. Opinions, suggestions, complaints? Also maybe I forgot something?
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FitterSpace wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/3410M.html
Does this TAS qualify for fastest completion? The highest difficulty in GoldenEye Wii (called 007 Classic) adds additional objectives that need to be completed. The fastest way to complete the game from start to finish is by playing on the easiest difficulty since you don't have to do those extra objectives. But on the other hand, this TAS does complete the game as fast as possible, just on a higher difficulty that takes a little longer. Also, would this TAS qualify for vault?
Edit: I should also mention that I do plan on making a TAS on the easiest difficulty one day, since the lack of additional objectives means that a lot of really cool glitches can be done to skip parts of the game. If I made a TAS on that difficulty and it were published here (along with an updated 007 Classic TAS), would both of them have the "fastest completion" flag? Both TASes would have the goal of beating the game as fast as possible, just on different difficulties that make the runs different lengths.
Hard difficulty is already vaultable. And preferable in general. Especially if it makes the movie more challenging and more entertaining. If you make one on easier difficulty, it might be accepted to Moons if it's different enough and entertaining enough, but if it's boring, there's actually a rejection chance. It's only faster because the challenge has been reduced, and the harder challenge is already there.
As for the flag for when they are both in Moons, I don't have a clear answer just yet. Can't guarantee they both get accepted.
As for unlockable level sets, they are allowed for Vault, see the clarified rules:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#Vault_2
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"Most users" comes from my unfixed post which comes from my 4-year-old memory. There has been discussion about how could existing problems with the Vault tier be fixed, and this name was a part of the most supported idea. Renaming doesn't magically fix a lot of things, it only fixes some. Not fixing anything was the most supported option of the poll, but polls don't reflect a lot of aspects either. While during actual discussion opinions may evolve and people can come up with improvements to others' ideas.
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EZGames69 wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
feos wrote:
...the Vault tier (which I'd still love to be renamed to Coins).
Off topic, but I like this idea. Keeps in line with using Mario 'power-ups' as the tier labels.
I personally find the Vault tier to be just fine as it is. The point of the tier was to accept any (or most) games on the site for record purposes. Naming it "Vault" makes sense because it acts as a archive for records on fastest completion and fastest 100% completion. I dont see how "Coins" would fit that description, and it might just cause confusion for a lot of people.
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Nach wrote:
VirtualBox has settings as to whether you want to use the host hardware or not. Obviously anything tightly coupled to the host shouldn't be used. That's where Hourglass has also had issues, where games acted slightly differently depending on the video card used.
Well I can't check this particular case anymore, but the main question is, was VB even designed with determinism in mind? I think it takes a dedicated guru to dig into the code and do the checks, as well as through usage. But even though this environment would allow games more modern that PCem probably, I really doubt games that require modern hardware are going to work at tolerable speeds if at all.
By the time there appears someone to start this work, PCem might be already way ahead by what it supports. Also linux TASing is already a reality, and if Wine is possible to get to work, quite some Windows games also become available for TASing without speed decrease (unless you're on a VM of course).
Bottomline: there are several directions to explore, it just takes code maniacs.
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It won't be widespread, because when you know how to do such runs, at some point the concept gets old and you aren't interested in making more and more submissions of it.
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Omnigamer wrote:
The flaw or ambiguity in 5 though is asserting that the content resulting from using the input is not available at the start. It is available from the start - exactly through reading the nonstandard input. This is no different from the content that can be accessed from game start through controller input alone.
You can not argue with a general statement. There can be specific combinations in games that spawn new characters that you can not select before entering such combinations.
You can not have entered such a combination before starting the game. Because such a combination is only ever read after the game has already started. Which means if you don't enter this combination, you don't get this special character, and it won't be available from the start.
Omnigamer wrote:
For numbers 6 and 7, I don't see these as reasonable or enforceable limitations. Plenty of games have content that is not explicitly detailed in-game or in user documentation, including special moves, secrets, and otherwise. Are all such content also not vault eligible? Or looked from the other perspective, if a developer explicitly lists a cheat code in a game manual, can using it be vaultable?
11 is not a clear concept. What is the functional difference between a set of inputs to generate content and a set of inputs to select pre-formed content? For MR2 specifically, it is not required to obtain a monster from the Market (pre-formed) to complete the game. It is optional to visit it at all, as you can obtain similar outcomes from the Shrine (generated). The only difference is that one method requires nonstandard input, while the other can be accessed with only controller data. If the nonstandard input is already regarded as part of the input set, the cases are identical.
Nonstandard input by itself I consider a normal input method for this game. But the key point is, what do you send as input data? Usually games tell which control does what in the game, it teaches you how to use controls. It may also teach you what codes you can send, and what they do. CD data here is a black box, and I don't think this can be contested. You do not know from the game instructions which CD bit does what in the game. This is used as a random seed, and it's supposed to look random when trying a new CD.
And using CDs is optional simply because you can complete the game without them. Both Shrine and Market are optional. In SMB, the A button is required, but the B button is optional. The Reset button is optional there as well. And the Start button is too
I don't think we need to draw any legitimacy lines between generated content and pre-formed content. We do not care which exact procedure is used to define your character. We only care how you enable this character in the game. By sending a specific input combination or by playing the game gradually and/or with glitches.
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Correct.
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Even after having read the rules added to the page?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
