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feos wrote:
This branch can be considered full completion. In this game, you have to resque the family members to beat it, and you also have a single type of upgrade you can get. Each of these gets awarded to you upon beating the bosses. Using the glitch present in the any% movie also means it is a vaultable goal (not that this movie is going to be vaulted, just documenting the bookkeeping info).
After this post was made, we had a community argument on what should be considered full completion in general, which resulted in this rules update: http://tasvideos.org/diff.exe?page=MovieRules&rev=337&prev=335 A few days later I added this clause, commenting that if a full completion objective is not optional, then it's just a fastest completion objective: http://tasvideos.org/diff.exe?page=MovieRules&rev=343&prev=342 I don't remember anymore if "all bosses" is defined in-game as an optional goal. If it isn't, and if beating all bosses is just an any% requirement imposed by the game, then we can only have this branch in Moons.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Rescuing them isn't optional in this game outside of glitches. Before the glitch was found, full completion definition for this game was non-existent. It can't magically appear from the fact that we can now glitch the friends.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I did a sloppy test on this 11-second segment (TASing in JPC-RR for the first time). You seem to be losing at least 72 frames there just to jumping and turning. Should I have avoided collecting any score items?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Apparently DOS games TASes get good feedback on forums, get to Moons, and then no one cares about rating them aside from those who find them really boring. It would really help if the DOS crowd that likes the submissions also showed that they like the publications.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Is anyone planning to dig into what Alyosha asked about, or was it just asked out of curiosity and it's safe to accept this movie?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I have one more thing to point out. As I said that we compromise accuracy to determinism if we have to, and we use available bad images if there's no good image in existence, with Hourglass and libTAS we also compromise authenticity of communication between the game and the environment. This happens because those tools don't emulate the hardware, they intercept the API, they serve as translation layers between the game and the environment. While both the game and the environment may be 100% authentic and untouched, some parts of the environment just have to be faked when fed to the game to allow TAS tools in the first place. The subject that spawned this discussion, OS time functions, have to be faked by libTAS when the game calls them, if we want TASability. Hourglass and libTAS allow the user to set time delta for a video frame, and the game uses this delta to decide how much the game should advance before the next frame is drawn. And they force this delta to be 100% consistent between frames, resulting in constant arbitrarily high or low framerate, which may not be possible for some games on vanilla OS. So apparently, libTAS and Hourglass force vsync at arbitrary framerates (way beyond what monitors are ever going to support). It might feel shady to talk about accuracy and authenticity here, but the point is limiting this to cases when it's fundamentally unavoidable, and not extrapolating this to whatever we can possibly want to modify while we're at it. For example, we allow non-original C64 game images that are the only ones available, but we don't allow hacking them further to make the games work faster or something, even though we acknowledge they're already hacked.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Это методом луа. А если плюсами, то так же плюсами читать файл и расставлять биты в gmv, ибо там бинарный формат (благо код открыт).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Ну так ты попробуй хотя бы. Все с чего-то начинают, тем более лучше всего учиться новой технологии когда тебе реально что-то от нее нужно. Погугли как из луа читать файл, как слать нажатия эмулю (у генса вменяемые луа доки), в ирке постпрашивай. Вот если угробишь 2 недели и не получится абсолютно ничерта, тогда посморим. А то я уже себе на блокноте в реальном мире завел список интернетных дел, и один хрен еле разглебаю.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Alyosha wrote:
I think part of the problem here is in dealing with different ideas of 'authenticity.' We don't really require emulators to be true to hardware, 'passably plausible' would be more accurate of what we require. This usually comes down to easy to identify and understand metrics. We don't overclock a NES CPU for example, this is something that is easy to understand and easy to check. Beyond that it if looks and sounds right it's given a pass. I haven't ever heard anyone say 'Hey that emulator is doing DMA instantaneously, that's not authentic!'
What you're describing was the situation of the past, mostly before major skip glitches became a norm. Lately with insanely precise memory corruption techniques that people are willing to verify on console and request emulator improvements accordingly - we do aim for accuracy of our emulators. While in this thread I was trying to find cons to obsoleting older optimal movies with newer equally optimal but more accurate ones, we still agreed to highlight such console verified resyncs and host them alongside the original movie files. And while accuracy can't be objectively measured, we depend on it being as high as possible, this is reality already.
Alyosha wrote:
I don't think this gives much of a platform to build off of for 'authenticity' in PC games, where the dynamic nature of hardware is just part of the landscape. My two cents would be to leave it up to the TASer and just make a judgement call as cases come up, probably based in large part on audience enjoyment.
Look at a similar case when inherent arbitrary nature of external data was decided to be disallowed from Vault.
Warp wrote:
If for some reason the game did not come with recommended specs (as might have been the case with many older games from the earlier 90's, and perhaps even some from later), one approach would be to research what was the most typical average gaming PC of the time of publication, and take that as a baseline. Of course even in this case there can be a lot of ambiguity (especially given that in the late 90's and early 2000's there were like 4 or 5 different major GPU manufacturers and at least 3 or 4 major CPU manufacturers, before only the current two on each industry were left), but some kind of baseline could probably still be reached. Of course there can still be other major problematic situations, even when using "recommended specs" or equivalent. A game from the late 90's could, for example, work properly when using a 3dfx Voodoo card but bug out if using an ATI FireGL card. Should the run be allowed to emulate the latter to abuse some glitches that don't happen with the former?
The main decision we should make here is whether we agree that arbitrary PC architecture and setup should be limited to Moons or not.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Вот вы заморочились. Делаешь скрипт который читает из логфайла хока текст нажатий, потом посылает в тот же кадр луа нажатия генсу во время записи мувика. И все. Никаких соответствий, только один вечер покурить ман.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Link to video I must say that this time, commentary was absolutely insane. Even more jaw-dropping than presented gameplay! Fantastic job guys, perfect execution!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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We don't blindly disregard the RTA rules either. If they happen to meet our rules, for example we have a note about community agreement, we can use them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I've been gathering info on the details, and here's the actual situation we're facing. Authenticity of the game We always enforced this. We want the image to be good, we disallow hacking it to make it easier (or to otherwise insignificantly change it). We disallow cheat codes. We disallow games that are poorly emulated, as well as in-game tricks and glitches resulting from poor emulation. When a game is not available at all in its original form, we allow its modified version that persisted as long as it doesn't glitch out over unintended console settings (like region). If a game can't be TASed due to various reasons, we may allow tweaking some of its files as long as it doesn't affect gameplay. Authenticity of the environment We also require our emulators to stay true to the original consoles they emulate. This feels implied, because consoles have locked and known once and for all specs, with exception for cases when some quirk was undocumented or documented wrongly. We don't allow emulator settings that don't correspond to something the original consoles had. It's important to note than in cases when a console behaves non-deterministically, we don't require emulators to inherit this aspect, quite the opposite: we enforce determinism even if it didn't exist on the actual console! With that one exception, we don't allow to emulate a hacked console, including its hardware and software it's been officially shipped with. Authenticity of their communication We don't allow NTSC games for CRT TV based consoles to be ran on PAL consoles. We don't allow using BIOS from the wrong region. The type of consoles the game version was released for is preserved while TASing. Exceptions are cases when different console version results in identical gameplay or seemingly improves it, like GBC or SGB do to GB games. Sometimes authenticity is not even remotely possible This is about PC specs. When architecture is open and anyone can release hardware and software for a machine, and when anyone can build a machine that fits their taste and budget, it's impossible to demand authenticity. Because there is no spherical original machine in vacuum, everything is infinite variations. Consoles have locked and sealed specs that may vary a bit, but otherwise it's possible to take a game, run it on original console and compare to how it's emulated. It's impossible to take a PC and check how well a game for it is being emulated to run on PC in general, because there's no the PC. You can only emulate one of the countless components. Then, you may manually overclock your hardware or throttle it as you like and can, to force the games do what you want. On top of that, some operating systems allow modifying games, even DOS could do that easily, and some games explicitly react to file modifications by enabling or disabling some features, or ignore them completely, loading levels in the wrong order or blindly using utterly irrelevant data as legit. So does that mean that for PC games, we should allow anything? Of course not. Probably by chance, but it happened so that over the years we've developed our rules to allow entertaining arbitrary decisions on one hand, and strictly defined, purely speed oriented, boring content on the other. When it comes to something inherently arbitrary, we do our best to disallow it from fastest completion and full completion, from the Vault tier (because those categories are supposed to be strict and obviously legitimate to vast majority of people). When it's hugely entertaining, we may allow non-standard approaches that may look odd or questionable, but we still try to forbid blatant misuse. For example, we allow in-game glitches that actually exist in the original software, but we don't allow injecting unintended game images before or during play. We don't allow pre-setting startup memory to something not known to be possible on authentic hardware. We don't allow Game Genie that goes between the game and the console, intercepting the game code. We don't allow unintended console region. Play can only feel superhuman if we enforce all the original limitations human had from the outside, and overcome our internal human limitations: planning in advance, perfect reaction and absolute precision. Breaking integrity and authenticity breaks the challenge we've been having with the game, as well as the challenge we're having while TASing. It'd also defeat the purpose of watching a TAS: who cares if I can kick my console and jump straight to ending? But we care how perfectly the game software can be played. We limit ourselves to working with software in isolation. Hardware this software is running on we take as is. All the conditions are authentic, only the human that faces them is no more mere human. So what do we do to PC games given unlimited specs variations? Just like with picking the intended console region or the intended BIOS, we can pick intended conditions the games were supposed to be played in. The easiest way to find them out is reading the official docs on recommended PC specs. If that's not enough or not available, we can use modes the games explicitly supply, for example several pre-defined speed modes. If even that is not enough, we may look at some less public resources like game code and deduce intended settings from that. Sticking to intended specs is required, because some games may completely glitch out on things they were never designed for, exactly like some NTSC games glitch out in PAL mode. Some games may be skipping levels over unsupported CPU, others would allow time saving glitches if you overclock the CPU, no one plays 3D games on GPUs that aren't meant to support them and break the gameplay. Breaking the authenticity just because it allows glitches is very very shaky ground. Come on already, should we ban that or not? No one is convinced such stuff should be outright banned. After all, maybe someone can make an entertaining TAS with noclip. But the arbitrary broken nature of unsupported environment doesn't really sound like it should be allowed for Vault. Also, when someone makes a TAS of Doom with overclocked CPU resulting in just 1 minute of very entertaining gameplay, such a setting would compromise the legitimacy of a movie to some people, just like there are people disliking major skip glitches or glitches in general. So if we limit such movies to Moons, we will need to add some labels and classes to them that would prevent any confusion. Just like we always mark movies that start from a save file and play nawgame+. The range of possible scenarios such classes and labels would need to reflect may be huge, so just throw out crazy ideas, brainstorm if you feel like it, we'll participate and review the suggestions. And of course tell me what you think about this post.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Simply avoiding a glitch doesn't mean it'd become full completion. Also the problem is that while both movies got great feedback on forum, the resulting movie rating was somewhat poor regarding entertainment. So neither movie seems to be vaultable, and their entertainment value happens to be borderline, despite of all the posts (this happens every once in a while).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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A couple questions while I'm checking optimality: Does this game have any kind of full completion criterion? How much time does the OoB glitch save? So far doesn't sound like that'd be eligible to the fastest completion category.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I also feel like it's an example of payload improvement in all possible senses, even tho watching Mitch playing ACE'd SMB3 was unforgettable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Right. This is why I think consistent arbitrary framerate is unreproducible on a real machine with vanilla OS and no API interception. You're limited to whatever vsync can give you. Can vsync alone force the GPU to render at consistent rate, given it's capable of rendering that fast? For TASing, fake time is often mandatory for sync, but it doesn't seem mandatory to just replay a movie for a game with no RNG at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Patashu wrote:
I guess the main 'problem' here is that instead of fully simulating a computer and advancing it by a specific amount of cycles (like JPC-RR), we're residing inside of a computer, fooling another program by swapping out the results of system calls, into thinking that certain amounts of time are passing (and other things).
Now I wonder if consistent 1000fps is achievable on a PCem/QEMU level: can you emulate a certain CPU, install a legitimate OS, and then run the game at consistent 1,000,000 fps? Or 0.30000000000000004 fps? Are such precise framerates even possible on real machines with real OSs?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Ну так это не полное описание варианта. Для гуя может быть использован браузер эдектрон. Просто это не слишком афишируется, ибо будет хз когда.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Patashu wrote:
why was there no similar debate for Windows TASes?
I don't think there was a decision not to discuss it back then :D It just happened that either no Windows TAS used translation layer's fake time to simulate crazy framerates, or no one noticed problems for those that did.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Для тех, кто в танке: на генсе сидят все линуксоиды и все тасеры соника. Бизхок не работает под линуксом, в его сеговском ядре нет камхака, а хоковское луа слишком медленное. Если это все решится, генс будет забанен. Вы лучше принципиальные преимущества кроме вышеназванных перечислите. И то пока что это не преимущества, а безрыбье. Мы с Марзо одно время обсуждали запихивание обновленного gpgx в эмуль lsnes с заменой ядра снес. Так как гамбатте делает то же самое, все вполне осуществимо, вот только с сейвами в gpgx действительно все не так радужно. Другой вариант - переезд хока на .netcore, это убирает нужду в моно и дает возможность без потерь функционала работать на линуксе нативно. Хотя луа скоростей генса не достигнет никогда.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If a game doesn't have randomness at all, and all it cares about is videoframe precision inputs (or inputpoll precision inputs), will it be possible to properly TAS it with no fake time?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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What about savestates and frame advance? Are OS time functions involved in these, and if they are, what's their relation to fake and non-fake time?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The thing I'm asking is similar to samplerate. The game is designed to retain the actual speed no matter what, and if you crank up the framerate that libTAS enforces, you just increase the samplerate in terms of frame frequency, without affecting the speed of the action. Like video lag on slow CPU, just reversed. Or imagine shooting a video. You have continuous reality with "infinite samplerate", and your camera films at 60fps by default. That'd be what vsync does in games. The speed of events is the same in both. Drop the filming framerate to 10, same event speed, lower samplerate. This tas is filming reality at 1000fps. Events speeds are unaffected, while precision, samplerate, time resolution increase. The question was, how does libTAS handle both of these entities, event speed and fake OS time? From cwitty's answer, I think it's the same thing as you said: libTAS can be configured which time it would report to the game. Normally, when vsync is on and the hardware runs at, say, 60fps, the game gets the same answer every time: "1/60th of a second has passed since last update". The game then decides how far gameplay was supposed to advance during that time, runs the engine and renders the new frame. As it was said, even with internal vsync off, libTAS still forces consistent framerate whatever we set in the same fashion: it just says "one millisecond has passed", and the game uses that delta to run the engine with this time in mind, and renders a frame that happened sooner than in the first example. Samplerate just increased, consistent delta decreased. Is this correct? Another question, games won't even allow TAS tools if time is not faked? Like, even TASing them with vsync, telling them accurate OS time every time, will we ever be able to TAS them within this workflow?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Co-op is just an N-player mode, Vault can have it if it's the fastest way to beat the game. If drop-in/drop out is faster, use that. Both versions can only be in Vault if they feature more than 50% of gameplay difference (inherently unique levels, bosses, etc).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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