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comicalflop wrote:
VANDAL wrote:
Would RAM Addresses be of any help? Of course Mupen64, at the moment, does not have a RAM searching device built-in but an alternative is an outside program called ArtMoney. It's a real neat program for all kinds of RAM searching and Address watching, it's completely free and has a simple features so it is easy to use. I find it works better than some of the built-in RAM searching devices (no offense to the hard working Coders) as it doesn't lag emulation (I think only FCEUltra's RAM Watch feature's what lags when frame advancing and maybe my sound settings were also causing this, I don't know). You may consider giving it a try as it may help you greatly.
Besides all that, the WIP looks really well done even if there is some debate as to whether it can be improved.
I do not know. I'll look into it. a mupen MEM watch? watch my real speed? I'd like that! if you'd be son kind (I suck at finding mem addresses on my own) can you find actual kart speed?
There's no question, I'm redoing. Michael and I got inside the tunnel without landing in the water.
This can be done in real time no problem, please be sure that you try ab-spinning to land facing the correct direction.
EDIT: By this I mean ab-spinning from the starting line, first go right and then cut hard left and jump backwards. In my experience this will work! If you have AIM, I can try to get on and talk to you this weekend, I am willing to help out or even drive sections if you wish.
Please keep in mind that though my posts in this thread (I am the OP) are focused on GP 2player SC's, I have experience with 1-player GP tricks as well and actually have plans for many of the tracks (and have had them for years).
I think it was mentioned a few posts ago but please also consider trying to use green shells to jump the wall instead of blue. You could shoot them off the opposite wall (by the stands) and drive towards the tunnel to jump in. This could allow you to get a closer item box than the hot air balloon. It would also allow you to make the jump two laps in a row since you could have three green shells.
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It's great to see you're working on this :) No real surprises on the strat but I have to say, lap 2's big long turn was painfully unoptimized (something that will be obvious to members of the mk64 community). Also, I think it may be faster to do the very first SC without going in the water (you can get a bit less distance or change the angle and hit the wall, and this can be done without tumbling as well). Other than that, did you learn anything about that double hop "MyleStyle" SC? The details of how to hit that SC are a bit of a mystery.
BIG EDIT:
Again, I'm very happy to see you working on this. I would like to offer you a suggested strat for LR that will save time compared to what you showed.
Drew's Suggested Strats (150cc 1-player):
LR:
lap 1
ab-spin into next player to make nearly a 180 spin and land on the ground below in the tunnel, facing correct direction.
MyleStyle up
lap 2
Get blue shell from Air Balloon and hold Z to drag it behind you.
Hit item boxes and pick up a single shroom (low probability but possible in 1st place, manipulate through direction of stick and buttons held ect.)
Use shroom immediately, while sliding into the tunnel
MyleStyle up
Possible Alternate lap 2
Get blue shell from Air Balloon and hold Z to drag it behind you.
do a 180 and take a single shroom from the item boxes
Head towards the finish line
Hit one of the cpu players and jump at the last possible second to hop into the tunnel
Mylestyle up
lap3
use blue shell to hit you over
(use additional shroom here if the alternate lap 2 is used)
MyleStyle up to finish
As for MT and SSMT strategies, I don't know what the speed values you are looking at are measuring (is it actually course over ground in the direction you want to travel?). In any case, I think doing semi-perfect MT's will not be too difficult as long as you know to avoid sliding as much as possible. For an SSMT, based on real-time strategies, I would hypothesize that the optimum strat would be:
press R + < on stick
continue holding R
> on stick for minimum frames (may only need to bring back to the neutral position)
< on stick for minimum frames
> on stick for minimum frames (again, possibly only need to bring ot neutral position)
Let go of R and press nothing but A for as long as possible, if you need to adjust your direction, do so immediately as it won't slow you down much if you do it while receiving the MT boost.
The key is, slide for as little time as possible. It is worth slowing down significantly from your cruising speed to get that boost charged up ASAP, ride the glide for as long as possible and then charge up another boost as fast as possible. Absolutely do not remain sliding while charging the mt for any longer than is absolutely required. Of course, depending on the turn, this may be longer than is usually optimal. For example, in BC, there are 90 degree turns, you will likely want to hold a slide around these for a bit longer than usual.
Have you planned out your strats for the next 15 courses? If so, it would probably be smart to post each before doing the course so we could offer ideas immediately. Though, I think you will find that many of the next courses will use the same strategy as the time trials WR's. You'll need to manipulate a heck of a lot of single shrooms and hope for luck with cpu charaters to hop off of for those courses where the 2-player vs SC's can be performed using cpu players.
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Bisqwit wrote:
mushroom wrote:
Yeah, it's only the transitions that are freezing, which leads me to believe that it's an emulation glitch rather than anything to do with the encoding.
It is an encoder bug. It is the only bug I observe in this video.
I have an AMD Athlon X2 3800+ with 2GB of RAM and it still ran poorly for me. I must need to up update my codec package. What do you recommend I install?
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Voted "Yes," I really enjoyed the improvements. However, I saw some spots that could be improved:
1. As you probably know, a faster strat is known for bringing the penguin to his mother in CCM:
Silent_Slayers wrote:
I've been working on a new strategy for lost penguin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9AVTyiAFGI
2. Also, when getting MIPS, why not catch him one step later so you have a shorter distance to run to the door? Also, after getting through the second star door with MIPS, you should have gone straight rather than angling across the entire room.
3. I still am not sure that you should begin to blj as soon as you exit the door to the second floor. It seems it would be faster to run to the stairs and then begin that... Similar thing with the endless stairs, why do a long jump rather than just run to the stairs or do a forward dive? It took you a while to turn around due to the momentum.
PS. I loved the dive maneuvers in Bowser 3 to get up the near-vertical ramps :) I never new about those.
Lastly, what codec was used to encode that video? It ran poorly for me.
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Mukki wrote:
I've stumbled across a new glitch for the first star in Hazy Maze cave. I did this at 100% on my emulator so I'm sure it could perhaps be a few seconds faster than the route in the current 120 star.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZTc9O9-n9E
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Well done Acryte, this is one of the more exciting developments I've seen in a while for OoT. The game is now sufficiently broken as to remain interesting but not so much that it's just a couple of brutal glitches... This will be an exciting TAS to watch :) I really hope it makes it under 2 hours.
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Well, not a bad idea BUT, I haven't seen this ever allow "crazy" height, it's usually a decent hop but not like what bouncing off a player allows. If there is a video showing otherwise, please link.
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thegreginator wrote:
Cool discovery. But I vote right now that we continue using the (U) version for all SMW TASes. Obsoleting a run just because of a different ROM seems like a bad idea to me, just look at the problems it created with SMB.
I vote that runners move to the E version if it's faster. In the world of TAS, faster is pretty much always better. And, in this case, the game may offer greater opportunity. Perhaps we can pass all of the spikes in Bowser's Castle without stopping, things like that would make the whole run more enjoyable.
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comicalflop wrote:
a co-op can:
-in DK, do the same thing, but have Bowser and Toad do the cave glitch thingy so they get 1st/2nd place
-in Yoshi's Valley, do the same thing; Bowser+Toad get 1st and 2nd
-in BB, use Bowser to launch Toad through the level; toad gets first and redicolous time, abd Bowser has to trudge along after 3rd power jump to finish 8th
-in RR, same as BB
Actually, at the very least, on RRd both Bowser and toad could bump into eachother to do the shortcut. It doesn't require much of a jump and I think Bowser can jump off of Toad enough to make it. If not, it may be worth trying characters more similar in weight. Perhaps it is possible to get characters of similar weight to even do the BB SC (though I'm not sure without testing since the BB SC was very difficult to hit even using Toad into Bowser).
So, I'm suggesting:
Co-op Special Cup:
-DK, both players do cave glitch and finish first and second.
-YV, both players do 3lap canyon SC and get 1st and 2nd
-BB, use first player to give second player huge SC then use second player to give first player huge SC and continue this until finishing:
Player 1: lap 1 is SC off of player 2
lap 2 gives player 2 SC bounce, waits and then takes SC bounce
lap 3 gives player 2 SC bounce, waits and then takes SC bounce then both players charge to the end
-in RR, same strategy as BB except, maybe you can use a computer player for the Player 2's final SC so he doesn't have to finish the last lap using the regular Spiral SC.
I think this would make Co-op faster than 1-player -> more desirable for TAS and also more entertaining.
comicalflop wrote:
so I'm guessing that it's going to have to be single player ANYWAYS since co-op runs too fast to be considered normal play.
This is not true, the emulator is just more capable of playing the game than the real console. The programmers actually changed the game to make it run faster so that the slower framerate in multiplayer did not translate into slower gameplay. I believe you can overcome this issue on a real console by overclocking it somehow hehe. Anyway, imperfect emulation has never stopped TASers before. I think you can limit the fps if necessary anyway.
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comicalflop wrote:
Hm... also, the special cup happens to contain 3 out of 4 stages where you skip laps (DK behind in the cave, Yoshi's Valley over the fence, Rainbow Road a co-op skip) and Boo's walkway which has a nice co-op skip, but not as quick as a lap skip like the other 3. would audiences really be entertained by merely skipping 3 out of the 4 races with a shortcut that the TAS would make look easy, and get a time of roughly 30 seconds to a minute for those three stages?
I think that's the purpose of a TAS, to rape the game and make it look easy! One thing I'm wondering now is: Is it faster to use Co-op for BB? Perhaps taking turns taking the big corner-cutter is faster than just finishing as fast as possible with one player...
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comicalflop wrote:
I was more wondering about co-op strategies in GP... for a special cup 150cc race, or a full run (all cups, 16 races) would GP benefit more from single player or co-op?
I'm downloading the vids to see what shortcuts there are...
Co-op would allow levels to be completed extremely quickly... for the first player. I think it's useful for achieving the fastest time for one of the players to finish but then you have to get the second player to finish somehow to move on to the next level. So, the fastest full run would be achieved on 150 cc without co-op to avoid having to wait for the second player to finish (unless someone discovers a way for that player to retire). Still, a lot of the co-op trick videos I showed could be performed by running into computer players. Of course, that requires even more manipulation of/and luck.
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antd wrote:
I added you to MSN, I use that frequently.
It'd be easier to ask you questions directly.
Since I'm sure you know all of the advanced techniques ^^
This game runs at 30FPS btw, so it skips 2 frames...
Should I go for Flap first?
(*thinks to self* I think it would be easier for me to get a feel for the course by doing fastest lap first. Then after knowing the course it should be easier for me to complete it 3 times normally.)
Different Turbo Boost:
Fastest 0 Frame Boost:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
+10 Frame Boost:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
+20 Frame Boost:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
As you probably can't see ^^; Holding A on the first possible frame to get a boost is beneficial as it puts you further ahead.
There is also a method of revving your engine before the first possible boosting frame. This is the fastest (known) starting strategy. Check out the videos Fried linked to and I'm sure you'll see this strategy used on some of the 3 laps and the first lap flaps.
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comicalflop wrote:
For a 2 player GP, which two characters should be selected? one lightweight one heavyweight, but which two characters specifically? or should a 150cc GP be done 1 player?
you could use the heavyweight to boost the lightweight into first place, and then try to limp along and get the heavyweight to finish as fast as possible, leaving #1 slot to the lightweight.
The best two characters to chose are Toad and Bowser. Toad is the lightest of all of the characters and has equal stats to Princess and Yoshi in all other aspects (to test character weight, go into versus mode and place two characters facing one another and press both accelerators at the same time, the one that pushes the other is heavier). Bowser is the only heavy weight with the quick acceleration feature (triple-tap A when stopped to get super fast acceleration).
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*edit* just noticed this was said on the previous page, just had to post after seeing the two pages on this page... it killed me */edit*
speed = abs(velocity)
if velocity is negative, speed is positive and if velocity is positive, speed is positive. Speed is intended to have a direction associated with it, you CANNOT have negative speed but you certainly can have negative velocity. Of course it is all dependent on perspective whether it is negative or positive.
PS, is there an avi for FODA's 120 star run that I don't have to use bittorrent for?
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hmm, nice find on kicking those bobombs...
COMMENTS ON THE RUN:
You jump higher than necessary to kill the first 3 big Goombas for blue coins, you hardly have to jump at all to get the blue coins from them (as you demonstrate later).
Did you really HAVE to grab the ceiling to get that one coin below the wiggler room on your way to 100 coin star? It seems like you could have just jumped to it without grabbing.
TTM:
A little shifty on the one air-borne part of the secret ramp, a straighter path could save some frames
You waited too long to turn towards the 95th star
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Yeah, I guess you'd have to save. I wonder if saving before stepping into the portal would give you credit, or whether the items you are carrying would affect anything.
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
Make sure the desnycing problem is fixed this time.
I think there should be some more testing on the guards appearing. Like get sun's song and make it day time to see if they're not there just to check. Then try going in close to night time to see when they actually appear so you'll know for sure if you just need to make it faster and also you could tell exactly what time you have to make it in by.
There still needs to be more testing if you can do forest as child without the game getting stuck. If you could do this, would that make a different optimal route where you don't have to race from dondigo's to the castle?
Would a hard reset during the forest temple victory cinema allow you to avoid a freeze while still beating the temple? Just curious if an emulator improvement could lead to a huge path change...
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FORWARD BACKWALKING!!! Please use this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCqexHJxsOM
(from the SDA forums)
This would make thing so much more interesting and probably help you perfect your lines.
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In WDW when you get the coins from the four boxes after you have 36 coins (for the 100 coin star) I believe it is faster to ground pound one block while you punch the abutting block. This can be done fast enough to cause the game to emit only one sound.
The jumps before you kill Chuckya could be avoided (and the ascent made quicker) by a triple jump to wall kick off of the wall next to the box you broke for coins.
I still think triple jumping directly to that floating stone walkway is much faster when the water is completely down.
EDIT (Adding more as I watch)
After getting the invisible cap in the downtown, wouldn't it be faster to long jump in front of that steeple thing rather than jump over it? You could then also long jump to that stone pyramid thing that the star is on...
If you use the Shyguy method for the KTQ Rematch, I bet you'd cause him to run faster...
Neat as that trick is to get over the wall at the beginning of the level when you're big, you can actually just triple jump over. This would especially help in 5 Itty Bitty Secrets, which, btw, I wonder if you could avoid having to grab that edge by diving a bit before you reach the island, it looks like you could.
On your 100 coind star in THI, the delay after getting the 6th star before the long jump seemed longer than necessary by a few frames.
Keep up the great work though, it's looking awesome!
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Voting "Yes" I really enjoyed the run and it's about time it was made :) I love this version and to see it beaten all the way through in an entertaining fashion was a treat!
One thing though, I dunno about 8-3 (at the end, waiting for that platform to move up seemed unnecessary) and 8-4 there were some odd things going on in those worlds that didn't seem optimized. I know the author tried to address some of them earlier but there are still things I'm not convinced on. Especially water worlds in general, what's with the changes in horizontal speed? Sometimes you seemed much faster than others.
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Weatherton wrote:
L4yer wrote:
You can't recover after a ground pound. Plus that avi is not the current wip, he redid some parts i believe.
Well, that is obviously not true if you watch the avi at 6:09, you will see him recovering from a groundpound (this one appears to be without the aid of the enemy)
btw, I loved how that 75th star was opened :)
EDIT: at 11:05, that was a neat way to get to that pathway but you can just triple jump straight up to it.
11:05 occurs in Wet Dry World and it is in reference to the way you keep jumping from the beginning of the level to that gray stone path that's floating in the air. You use a wall jump to get up there but I think that is slower than just using a direct triple jump.
EDIT: Finally, when collecting that last coin, would it be faster to punch the wall in order to move back down below?
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Weatherton wrote:
In HMC, why did you allow yourself to be stunned sometimes when you fell rather than dive to save yourself. For example, sometimes when you break the red coin blocks you dive before you hit the ground and avoid the stun delay, but other times you do not.... (see 6:09 in that avi for a time when you did not get stunned but 2:35 and 2:52 for times you did). Also, at 7:01... atleast you could have grabbed the edge or something, couldn't you?
7:19-7:26 seems unoptimized.
It seems to me that you understood my first comments here, though I still don't understand what you meant. Will your next version completely avoid stuns due to ground poinds while collecting red coins in HMC?
My second comment here was in reference to the jump and swim you took on your way to collecting the 100 coin star and Swimming Beast in the Cavern. It seemed less direct than it could have been, especially the swim. Is there a reason you needed to vear to the right?
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FODA wrote:
so, nobody noticed. after mario goes through the box he isn't pounding anymore, he's free falling. i just did a dive.
weatherton: read please, i don't have the avi, so going by numbers doesn't mean anything to me, tell me which parts are those.
OK, I will go back and find a better way to describe those points to you. For now I am still progressing through the WIP and have some additional comments:
In "Go to Town for Red Coins" I didn't understand your choices for when to ground pound and when to punch the blocks. I thought it would be optimal to do the opposite of what you did in some cases. When the block is on the ground, I think you should ground pound it and thus automatically collect the coin when you land. When it is in the air I think you should either punch it and then jump to it or you should jump on top and ground pound through it.
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L4yer wrote:
You can't recover after a ground pound. Plus that avi is not the current wip, he redid some parts i believe.
Well, that is obviously not true if you watch the avi at 6:09, you will see him recovering from a groundpound (this one appears to be without the aid of the enemy)
btw, I loved how that 75th star was opened :)
EDIT: at 11:05, that was a neat way to get to that pathway but you can just triple jump straight up to it.
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In HMC, why did you allow yourself to be stunned sometimes when you fell rather than dive to save yourself. For example, sometimes when you break the red coin blocks you dive before you hit the ground and avoid the stun delay, but other times you do not.... (see 6:09 in that avi for a time when you did not get stunned but 2:35 and 2:52 for times you did). Also, at 7:01... atleast you could have grabbed the edge or something, couldn't you?
7:19-7:26 seems unoptimized.
[/URL] +10 Frame Boost: [URL=http://imageshack.us]
[/URL] +20 Frame Boost: [URL=http://imageshack.us]
[/URL] As you probably can't see ^^; Holding A on the first possible frame to get a boost is beneficial as it puts you further ahead.