Posts for Weatherton

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Bob A wrote:
no vote. i simply can't enjoy watching someone drive in circles to trick the game into thinking you won.
If Zelda glitch runs get published... (I mean, look at Zelda: 2, LttP, LA...) My run seems to play more by the rules than these.
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Would you consider playing the hardest path on Star Fox and defeating Andross as beating the game? After all, you haven't played all of the levels... MarioKart64 game designers considered players good enough to beat the Special Cup on 150cc as having beaten the game. It's the hardest cup in terms of cpu competition and level design and when beaten in first place, the credits role and the last screen says "THE END." Really, the all-cups run seems to be a more arbitrary be definition of having beaten the game, because the first three cups are not necessary to get to the ending. Plus, you can't call it a 100% completion because you haven't beaten the game on Extra mode (or 50 and 100cc for that matter) and those modes would have different stratgies. I'd be willing to bet that you can't make the BB SC in 100cc, so that course would be different. Heck, I'm not sure if the Luigi Raceway MyleStyle is possible on 50cc. As for extra mode, that is completely redundant to 150cc EXCEPT for Toad's Turnpike where you are now going AGAINST the traffic. If Zelda Ocarina of Time can skip straight to the spirit temple, why can't I skip straight to the Special Cup, it wasn't a code, it was a gameplay decision offered right at the beginning. As for people who claimed the SC's were too redundant and that more racing should be performed, my run "aims for fastest time." More racing would be slower and a "No shortcuts" run would take a lot of the fun jumping and hopping out of the game and make all three laps even more identical! If you step through each lap of my TAS you will see that there are very few that are similar in strategy: DKJP -- Use sloppy finish line definition to cut back around the course in one motion. Also, significantly different lap times demonstrate the difference in each lap. YV -- Confuse Lakitu to put you down in front of the finish line having completed a lap. All three laps are performed differently! BB -- The course you all like is the one with two nearly identical laps... And, I would like to point out once again. It IS possible that Bowser will not be in the right place on an all-cups run. If this jump is not possible, there goes another 10 or so seconds slapped on the course/total time. As for this being "sloppy." I honestly think Fried is making a stretch when comparing it to the TT WR. I think this for two reasons: 1. 150cc has different physics and MT's do not seem to give as signifcant a difference in speed on 150cc as in TT. Therefore, the strategies will likely not be identical (for example, I take a single MT on the zig zag section so that I can get a straighter path and spend less time sliding because apeared to not be worth it). 2. I made certain in most cases that I built up my mt's in as few frames as possible, this means I spend less time sliding than in the TT run and, as a result, take turns slightly different. Is the race perfect? No Is it sloppy? I think only if you're looking through Fried's robotic eyes. RRd -- Confuse Lakitu, this time to put me down behind the finish line, requires clever use of shells and the first lap has a completely different way of using shells. Most posters have described being surprised by this course. If that is not variety (when all 3 laps could have been nearly identical for each race) then I do not know what is! PS FOR THOSE HAVING TROUBLE WITH THE VIDEO. As I mentioned in the post, for some reason it doesn't seem to play well in VLC player but plays fine in WMP (at least for me). I'm sorry if it doesn't work for you, I could try other settings.
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AKA wrote:
I watched it again, I now think that its unoptimized espeacially Rainbow Road and Banshee Boardwalk.
I think you'd have to understand RRd to say it's unoptimized... honestly, show me where.
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comicalflop wrote:
laughing_gas wrote:
Rainbow Road is worth the amazingness on its own. Nobody has seen anything like that done by one kart alone, nor seen any times that are about 1/3rd in total of what the TT sc flap is. As I stated, shock was THE major part about my GP run, both for what audiences wanted to see and why I wanted to make it. The whole point is that all the tricks for all 16 courses are all cool, and that now none of them are unknown. Unless something is discovered by myself, Fried or Weatherton, my run will offer nothing new shortcut wise.
Josh, if you take a minute to pause and think about this reasoning you will see yet another reason I felt compelled to submit the run. That BB SC basically seems like my baby, I've been nursing it for two years and it finally worked successfully in GP! I was so excited I wanted to show everyone (many of whom probably saw the SC demonstrated in my compilation video, even if they didn't understand it). As for the RRd. SC's The amount of strategy development I had in that last night working on the TAS was exilerating for me. I had gone from doing a CPU jump over to a part of the track in BEYOND the spiral to firguring out the Green Shell hit does not make you continue tumbling and that the drift would eliminate my need for cpu boosts for the big SC. After realizing that the item boxes behind me were very close making that spiral skip jump possibly not worth optimizing. I then confirmed that going backwards was the fastest way to go forwards (and that the SC still worked when doing that). But this did not occur until after I realized you can't get green shells in 8th place and that red shells don't let you "untumble." I was then able to replicate the desperate shroom hop using triple shrooms (difficult to manipulate in 8th and usually not the preferred item, and I used my recent discovery that shooting one item seeds the random item generator). By the way, the triple green shells are the most difficult item to manipulate in first place. I WAS EXCITED, and I optimized it all as best I could stand. I don't necessarily see why the strategies I developed are yours to surprise people with. I am happy to work with you on your run though and appreciate your friendship. PS. Your tendency to have a bunch of runs going and the pace at which your mk64 run had been developing (not necessarily your fault, I know Fried's perfectionism combined with yours equals slow development) was another REASON I wanted to submit. You yourself said you planned to get to the Special Cup in a little over a year (and that's assuming better than the current pace)...
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I encoded the run with Xvid: http://people.virginia.edu/~avw6s/MarioKart/TAS/MarioKart64_anyPercentage_Weatherton.avi I'm not sure why but the sound has issues on my VLC player, plays fine on WMP though.
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Deep Loner wrote:
OK, quoting from the IRC channel:
<tt><NesVideoAgent> New reply by Spider-Waffle (N64gam: Mario Kart 64): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/126221 [...] <NesVideoAgent> Post edited by Spider-Waffle (N64gam: Mario Kart 64): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/126221#126221 <NesVideoAgent> Post edited by Spider-Waffle (N64gam: Mario Kart 64): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/126221#126221 <NesVideoAgent> Post edited by Spider-Waffle (N64gam: Mario Kart 64): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/126221#126221</tt>
I have X-Chat configured to alert me to new posts and edits in the forum. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE use the minor edit function!!!
I can't help but wonder WHAT was being edited in that post, it seems so simple... Did it used to be longer than three sentences? Note to all, you may want to check the workbench later on tonight...
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Post subject: Flower Cup Test Commentary
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Flower Cup test run by Drew Weatherton, done first week of April, 2007: Comments: Once again, I chose Toad so that I could get the maximum hops off of cpu players in case it was necessary (and CM shows that it probably is). In general this test run has sub-optimal MT's and some avoidable wall-hits, this sort of thing (obviously) would not be present in the final product. The goal of this test run was just to go through the levels and try out several strategies as a proof-of-concept. Toad's Turnpike: Used the regular Time Trials SC strat, this uses the "Lakitu Effect" to be able to jump off the overpass. The Lakitu Effect occurs in the moments after Lakitu puts you down when you can drive on polygons that Lakitu normally considers out of bounds, I get placed about as far away from the overpass as I can before the effect would wear off. Please keep in mind that for the 2nd and 3rd SC's to work, I need to be sure not to cut this first jump too much and end up going over the water. If that happens, for some reason the later SC's will not work properly and you will be placed back right where you jumped off. Item usage: I made sure that every item I picked up was a ghost and then manipulated a shroom with that ghost. From my testing, you can only manipulate items you could usually get in first place and what item you get depends on button input. When you press Z the random item generator is seeded and gives a result. In one spot in this race I had a difficult time manipulating a shroom and was in a tight spot, so I gave up (this is a test run after all and I made the whole thing in a couple days). Also, please note that it is likely not possible to receive two items during a single pit stop area. There is less than 30 frames between the first box and the last so it seems unlikely one could manipulate a shroom from the first, use it and then grab the last one (at least not at top speed). Frappe Snowland: Unfortunately, no shrooms = slower than the WR no matter what we do. I used the standard 3-lap strategy with "going left." I have since discovered that the fastest way to turn around is actually: 127 left or right and 120 down (as opposed to 127 for both). So, this is one place to save time. Also, I should have let go of B as soon as I was on the snow and the shroom had worn off. I didn't spend much time with it but I think my spin out may have been faster than going around the section of snow that Lakitu would normally grab you on. Also, on the second part of lap 2, I use the tree to bump me over for a shorter path. I go to a different spot on this lap so that I can be placed in front of the bridge. This should be compared to ensure that it is faster but I just wanted to demonstrate that it was possible. I'd bet there is over .5 seconds to be saved on the final product but it will never break the WR. By the way, the flap strategy would be slower to use in a three lap even in a TAS; the setup takes too long. Besides, it would require a shroom. Choco Mountain: Now this is a fun level. So many options, instead of describing what I did, I will describe what I think the optimum path will be. Start off the first lap as normal, manipulate a shroom and as soon as you exit the tunnel, run into the wall on the left (or possibly right). AB spin and shroom back into the tunnel at a heavyweight (DK or Wario might work but it may end up requiring Bowser). May need to do a left facing slide when shrooming to get the right angle and enough speed. Nail a huge jump similar to what I do on lap 3 in the test run but after passing the finish line (must be a few kart lengths inside of the pole) get stuck up on a polygon that tricks Lakitu into putting you down below the finish line in the tunnel (there are several of these a bit beyond where I hit in lap 3). From tunnel, do race as normal, do perfect regular SC (probably have to do it without a shroom so that the last lap can be done) and follow the same strat as my lap 2 to finish lap and end up in the tunnel underneath. AB spin shroom back into the tunnel at a heavyweight character to finish similarly to how I did in the test run (hopefully a cpu is nearby to do this). Of course, the strat will depend heavily on where the heavyweight cpus are. It may be possible to get up to the road with a middleweight but, based on my experiences, I doubt a lightweight would be sufficient. If only a lightweight is accessible, it may be possible to hit the polygon to the left as you exit the tunnel that would cause Lakitu to put you up near the finish line. Of course, Lakitu warps waste a lot of time if they can be skipped. Mario Raceway: This course was completely experimental, no laps used the fastest strategy. However, I captured several potential pieces to the puzzle. To start things off, the cpu jump over the wall was something I had planned for some time now. However, I had not thought about where the item boxes are in this level until I got to it and cleared the wall. Turns out, clearing the wall like this means skipping the first set of item boxes. It also, as a result, means I don’t have a shroom to perform the main SC. No matter, I managed to do what many thought impossible and cleared the wall (on the faster side of the T) shroomless. The problem here is that, without a shroom, the trip across the grass takes a while. I decided to go for the item boxes and grab a shroom but, as it turns out, that was probably not worth it. So, lap 1 on Mario Raceway actually ends up being significantly slower than the next two laps. This should not happen on this course as the shroom boost at the start lets players cut the first corner better than on the next two laps, usually resulting in the fastest lap in a Time Trials 3lap. It may be that going for the item box after the start killed a lot of time. I don’t know, but it also might mean that the regular SC strategy (and picking up the item box on the first turn) is faster. More testing will be needed. Also, please note, a SC like lap 3 of LR is likely possible on this course. Whether this is faster will depend on cpu positioning as it does not appear to be possible on lap 1. Laps 2 and 3 were uneventful compared to the regular SC strategy (and, in fact were quite sub-optimally executed but remember this is intended as a strategy search, not a submission). The only notable part was on lap 2, on the last corner, I use the shroom and manage to capture a “sticky shroom” on .m64. The cause of this has been a mystery to the Mario Kart 64 community until now. As you can see, it results from bumping off of the steep polygon near the corner and staying closer to the ground as a result. Of course, Michael Fried, upon watching this .m64, says that the turn he makes in his Time Trials TAS is faster. Still, perhaps more experimentation is warranted.
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A couple of notes: I am writing a commentary for the test run, hopefully that is done tomorrow. Also, I encoded it but the audio desynced. So, I think I will try different settings later. In the mean time, enjoy.
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Voted Yes. Much like the Tetrisphere TAS, I had no idea what was going on and that score seemed pretty sick (though I never played the game on console, so I am definitely not an authority on that). Now come back to the mk64 TAS w/ me Comical Flop!
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If ComicalFlop would let me, I would upload the full concept demo of the Flower Cup. It is quite fast though does not use the optimum strategies in every instance (I was testing different methods). If I uploaded it I would explain each place where I personally see a faster path/strat and then we could get feedback. All interested, say "I."
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Burning Death wrote:
As far as I know there are no unintended shortcuts for this game, the dinosaur boss glitch seems like a rumour to me. I haven't tried it yet, though.
Two things: 1. David Wonn (Shortcut/game glitch guru) told me he was aware of atleast a couple unintended SC's 2. I personally experienced the dinosaur glitch and I appear to not be the only one... Of course, it's always possible that in order for it to occur you have to lose to the boss a bunch of times or something (I recall having trouble at first...). Please note though, I actually was a pretty good DKR player back in the day. I opened TT and beat all of the times at the end of the credits without any of this A-button tapping business. I considered that a decent accomplishement at the time (though I wasn't involved with any competetive community).
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comicalflop wrote:
I'll encode it when I get the chance tomorrow. Also tomorrow I'll PM you the exact name of the ROM used. Xenos: will look at it tomorrow. and OgreSlayeR: I am very hurt :( clearly you have not seen what Weatherton and I have been cooking up. MK64 is slower to produce, but I think you'll like the end results VERY much.
I hardly think you can compare the two games really, they just feel very different. Especially with DKR looking to be fairly straightforward strategy-wise so far. Question though: Which courses on DKR have significant, probably unintended, Short Cuts? I know that Wonn had told me about one or two but he couldn't remember the details. Also, I remember (and it was discussed earlier in this thread) having a glitch occur on a boss race that got me to win earlier. It was on the boss race already finished in this TAS and another poster had described a similar experience.
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comicalflop wrote:
I get this same desynch. Mario Kart 64 desynching doesn't seem logical, but mupen is mupen I guess.
Yeah, very odd that the .m64 desynched. Oh well, the backup I had of that file (just a bit less progress on it) works fine. And, it doesn't matter since I changed the strategy again: *Edit: *link removed* Per ComicalFlop's request, I have removed the .m64 so that we can make development of the run as exciting as possible.
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Soulrivers wrote:
I'm getting a desync right after the tunnel on CM, but what I saw looked very good. :)
What frame number?
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
How did you get a star in first place? Can you get anything better than a shroom with a ghost?
This was a finish line glitch, on RRy (and on KTB) there is a part right before the finish line on the right side that mistakenly thinks you have not progressed in your current lap. I am able to get to that spot just before my item is chosen and so it thinks I am in 8th place for a moment (a very brief moment because it doesn't even update my position on the screen). So, with this method, I can get any item. I also have .m64/vids of getting lightning and a golden shroom. If we end up using a blue shell in KTB, we'll probably get it with this method (ironically, since there is a blue shell item box in that level, but it's somewhat off optimal course). As for manipulating items with a ghost. I think you actually get the item that the second place player has when you're in first... in versus mode (from frustrating experience of having my item stolen when playing with friends). However, in 1-player GP mode the item you get is just a random selection of available items for your position. So, in first place the best I can do is get a shroom (unless something else could be more optimal for the strategy on a given level). However, I am not certain another level will benefit from using ghosts, though it is possible on SL for penguins, maybe RRd for Chomps or BC for Whomps. We'll have to see where those obstacles end up being on an optimal GP run... By the way, this definitely was not an April fools joke (though I'm somewhat flattered that you thought it was): http://people.virginia.edu/~avw6s/MarioKart/FlowerCup_Testingv8(CM_BIGcpuBoost_ThroughStreet)_MARIOKART64%20(USA).m64 Also, if you watch the above .m64, you'll see more strat development on CM.
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Post subject: Re: MMf update
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Ersatz wrote:
comicalflop wrote:
I haven't touched it for a week, instead noodling with a few other games/ideas/activities. (OoT 100% planning, doing a lot of downloading of videos of concepts/wips, and other stuff
I hope this doesn't go the way of Goldeneye, just to be picked up later after several months... that was agonizing! Keep on track we are all rooting for you!
Trust me, progress is being made. This run has two, necessary, parallel efforts: strat/Short Cut searching and planning and then execution and optimization. The strat / Short Cut searching has had significant progress in the last week and it is important that that occurs before ComicalFlop gets to a level. Just to whet your appetites, here are some test-run videos: http://people.virginia.edu/~avw6s/MarioKart/FlowerCup_Testv4.avi http://people.virginia.edu/~avw6s/MarioKart/FlowerCup_Testv5-CM.avi http://people.virginia.edu/~avw6s/MarioKart/RRy_ShroomsInFirst_LakituWarp3.avi Please keep in mind that these are rough playthroughs and that they are more strategy-oriented. For example, I should have manipulated another shroom with one of the ghosts on TT but it proved frustratingly difficult andI needed the ghost immediately, so I just skipped it. Also, I have a feeling that first lap on FS could have been faster if I stopped AB spinning earlier (I continued through the whole lap, but I think it slowed me down at the end). Though I think spinning out allowed me to hop over an area that lakitu would normally pick me up. Also, hitting the tree on lap 2/3 boosted me over to where I needed to be while still avoiding that same Lakitu triggering-point. I needed to go to a different spot on that lap to be placed ahead of the bridge (which wouldn't have worked on any other lap). As for CM, it's still a work in progress but you can see how exciting the strat may be -- I have WIP's that are actually much faster now :) I'll keep those b/t me and ComicalFlop for the moment though.
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GuanoBowl wrote:
Nice trick Swordless. I will be starting my run back up here in a week. I have been practicing my Guitar Hero II for a big tournament coming up on March 31st.
:)
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comicalflop wrote:
"Do I have to go back there and push?" um, interesting idea, but the mechanics of being behind another CPU are very slippery. for one, being behind a kart is called "drafting" which will interestingly give me a speed boost and throw some things off, but more importantly, I don't even know if it's possible to push a kart forward. Ramming/moving into another kart, even at a slower speed, will push you either left or right (or up if jumping into it). there's a lot of bounciness when it comes to kart's coming in contact with each other. I made a test .m64 to show why it wouldn't work so well. I first used Bowser, and that was a bad idea, so I switched 2nd player to Yoshi. I think it's an interesitng idea, but won't work as well as F-Zero in getting a CPU to reach item boxes much quicker to make it worth it.
The CPU players in mk64 also adjust to your handicap, if you're really good (way in front) they tend to drive faster (to a limit) if you stay behind them, they slow down for you. Just something else to think about...
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Hmm, while not entirely new (see the compilation video I made to see it done in the late 90's) I've never seen that jump cause THAT much height. I will have to experiment with this a bit to see what caused it (and if it can be done with items rather than turbo strips...). Do you know who made it? I wish we could see the input. Definitely won't help in ComicalFlops' run though since he does not have another player to drive towards him. EDIT* Seems that the this may have something to do with Bowser being able to get a mushroom like boost while having an active star... That would make this unique to the turbo strip and thus only useful in a 3-player or 4-player run (since it would save more time to use a second player to get up to the jump).
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Sastopher wrote:
Wow wow wow. I laughed out loud when Comicalflop proved his name by launching off Wario. Too good.
The ironic thing? That jump was raced partly by me and partly by Fried :P Wait till you see KD...
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Wouter Jansen wrote:
That's great news! Could you test things out while you're on it, just recently we started to notice some difference from using widescreen/cinema instead of fullscreen, it seems to be faster on levels like bunker 2 and train (they're pretty complex, without much of straight paths, but many turns and such). but I'd be really happy if you could do some tests for it on each level, we could really use the information for the real records =) and perhaps also see if 16:9 has any effect, or any other settings, who knows. but widescreen/cinema are the main ones, since we're already sure it has to be faster in some cases.
Just out of curiousity, Wouter, is there a way to use those settings (16:9 etc) in multiplayer? I'm curious because I have a shiny new HD TV...
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
very slowly...
Fitting that Spider-Waffle of all people should make this comment ;)
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bkDJ wrote:
Vidar wrote:
On an unrelated (but fairly important) sidenote: Dammit Spider-Waffle, when is that AVI for Half-Hour Half Life going to be released? :(
Uh? there are a few different flavors of that run on sda, and a horrible horrible youtube encode.
Um, where are these various flavors you speak of? All I've seen is the Youtube. btw, Comicalflop, sorry I didn't get on AIM this weekend, my wife got me a Wii and that took priority for the weekend. I will hopefully be able to work on this with you though :)
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
For those player boosted shortcuts, why don't you just make each level seperate, and end it when player 1 finishes. And for levels like that penquin island one use more than 2 players if it's faster. Then just put all the levels into one video. If bisqwit doesn't like it who cares. You can get way more views on youtube.
I think that is the only way it would really be feasible since it may not be faster for one player to wait a lap so that they can do the same trick off the other player. Yeah, I think I may work on this while Comicalflop works on his 1-player GP run. I will see what happens this weekend, I've been meaning to get this started for sometime now and the good reception of Comicalflop's work (even pre-optimization) may be enough to motivate me.
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Andypro wrote:
Sorry, but what does "mylestyle" mean, and what is the origin of the word? Thanks. Just trying to keep up with the progress/plans here ;) minor edit: 100th post, yay? heh.
It's the double hop SC that is really hard to hit on LR. Named after Myles Bukrim, the first karter to hit the SC in time trials (though the trick was discovered by David Wonn in 150cc).
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