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Welcome BLiNX_PERSON !
It's amazing to see new people here submitting movies !
The points given here are just informationals for future submissions and will never make your submission here rejected because of it:
* You've submitted a *.tasproj file while a *.bk2 file is better because you don't need to delete the greenzone and the file will be compressed. To export a tasproj file into bk2, on the TAStudio window go into "File -> Export to Bk2".
* You've submitted a movie made on a 2.9 dev version of BizHawk. A submission must syncs on an official release of an emulator, I advice you to make your movies on such and not on dev versions as you'll probably have bad surprises. Thankfully here, your movie syncs on the 2.8 version of BizHawk.
* Enabling BIOS is preferred for submissions, to simulate the best of beeing on real hardware for the publication.
So I resynced your movie on 2.8 using the GBA BIOS to enable Console Verification on GBP, I've also added the cyclecount to the bk2 without modifying any of the inputs so your movie remains unchanged : User movie #638131204353901865.
Do you agree for the replacement of the movie ?
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Here is the same movie in GBA mode for Console Verification, no change in the inputs, same rerecord count, Author noted : User movie #638128316808155798.
To late to modify the actual submission.
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I just decided to look if all gems was effectively obtained during this movie by exploring in real-time the beginning of the game.
It seems like one gem is missing from the movie looking at my userfile made in real-time here: User movie #638123333270994731.
The last NPC gives you 10*X more gems (X beeing the number of gems you have), so by getting all known(4) gems, you'll get 4+4*10=44 gems at the end.
There might be other gems missing from this submission as I didn't look everywhere in the game.
Therefore, without looking at other technical parts from this submission, this movie has an incomplete goal of getting all gems in its current form.
We let you the time to fix this LogansGamingRoom ;).
Also, my 1 frame improvement on the last stairs screen hasn't been implemented yet, don't forget it !
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I like how the AI is locked !
Nothing to say about the mode used here, the movie syncs, the game is completed with the win of the match.
In term of optimization, the only goal is effectively done at the right moment to save time.
The only flaws on the surface is a waitting of 6 frames on the lineup screen before the match starts but it messes up everything else later on if changed and I have no clue if it could save time and even if it could, it wouldn't justify a rejection.
To me everything fits !
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First of all, here is the movie with a fix of the inputs as the input file is broken and crash the emulator at the first input if played back: User movie #638118251803231235
This movie is funny by how the game can be completed with only one touchdown !
This movies seems well optimized, the mode is good and I see no problem that prevent it from beeing accepted BUT...
Now the main part:
Movie Rules wrote:
The final input should always automatically lead to the game's completion, though you can make a stylistic choice as to where it ends:
* You can end input as early as possible, letting the game play itself out to completion no matter how long it takes
* Or you can end input when it's not possible to complete the game any faster with additional input
The game is completed here as the match is the game and is won.
The movie aims here for the first possibility: "ending input as early as possible".
We already encountered a movie obsoletion that could also happen here. Here is how feos dealt with it : Post #506461.
A clear endpoint that we have here is the match's winning screen.
This game has an in-game time and so we can eazily compare a run to another with both endpoint and IGT:
- The strat menu delays the IGT to advance and so the endpoint.
This is why I think that a movie wich is even longer than this one in term of inputs but doesn't have (or less) events like the ones above that delays the end of the match should obsolete this movie in the future.
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This movie is funny by how the game complete itself without much actions from player !
This movies seems well optimized, the mode is good and I see no problem that prevent it from beeing accepted BUT...
Now the main part:
Movie Rules wrote:
The final input should always automatically lead to the game's completion, though you can make a stylistic choice as to where it ends:
* You can end input as early as possible, letting the game play itself out to completion no matter how long it takes
* Or you can end input when it's not possible to complete the game any faster with additional input
The game is completed here as the match is the game and is won.
The movie aims here for the first possibility: "ending input as early as possible".
We already encountered a movie obsoletion that could also happen here. Here is how feos dealt with it : Post #506461.
A clear endpoint that we have here is the match's winning screen.
This game has an in-game time and so we can eazily compare a run to another with both endpoint and IGT:
- The extra goal delays the defined endpoint.
- The fools happening during this movie delays the defined endpoint.
This is why I think that a movie wich is even longer than this one in term of inputs but doesn't have (or less) events like the ones above that delays the end of the match should obsolete this movie in the future.
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This movie is funny by how the AI is unable to catch up the player's score giving its time to do it !
This movies seems well optimized with the AI not beeing eazily manipulated, the mode is good and I see no problem that prevent it from beeing accepted BUT...
Now the main part:
Movie Rules wrote:
The final input should always automatically lead to the game's completion, though you can make a stylistic choice as to where it ends:
* You can end input as early as possible, letting the game play itself out to completion no matter how long it takes
* Or you can end input when it's not possible to complete the game any faster with additional input
The game is completed here as the match is the game and is won.
The movie aims here for the first possibility: "ending input as early as possible".
We already encountered a movie obsoletion that could also happen here. Here is how feos dealt with it : Post #506461. We take his agruments as a basis as I also agree with them :
A clear endpoint that we have here is the match's winning screen.
This game has an in-game time and so we can eazily compare a run to another with both endpoint and IGT:
- The 5s violation that appears at the ends of period 2,3 & 4 delays the end of the period and so the defined endpoint.
- The dunk animation also pauses the timer which also delays the defined endpoint.
(Note that as far as I tried the half-time show cannot be skipped).
This is why I think that a movie wich is even longer than this one in term of inputs but doesn't have an event like the ones above that delays the in-game timer should obsolete this movie in the future.
It's still up to discussion by everyone if there is any disagreement about my points treating these submissions.
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This is great that you've been able to save more time from my part !
But I verified your inputs and my 1 frame improvement on the 12th screen isn't there anymore :/.
So I fixed it and thanks to this, an extra-lag that appeared in the transition between the 14th and the 15th screen in your last improvement isn't there anymore !
So technically a 2 frames improvement over the last one. (Editing the submission text)
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I managed to save 24 frames on the 11th screen shown in the TAS by jumping early at the end of the 10th screen to not bump on the high wall and skip falling all the way down. I then saved 1 frame on the 12th screen by grabbing the ladder 1 pixel higher without losing time.
Here is my improvement imported into BizHawk 2.8 : User movie #638113223177048496.
Other than that, everything else fits to me.
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This is a valid improvement, nothing to say in term of optimization and settings.
Great RNG manipulation which is well explained once again !
Everything fits to me !
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keylie wrote:
Cheat codes and passwords are only allowed to access harder difficulties and/or bonus content, including cosmetic improvements.
Arcade continues are considered cheats.
Recently, games have included what in called in Celeste an "Assist Mode". It is extra options that change some game parameters (invulnerability, game speed, etc.) aimed at making the game accessible to more people. I think this should be considered a cheat. Optimal runs with assist mode would often result in more trivial gameplay. As opposed to debug mode, assist mode is immediately accessible from menu, and is sometimes not even distinguishable from other options (see Disc Room in-game options and here), so I don't know if it's already covered.
Mmm interresting, but as you describe it and if this is only not accessible with a password or a cheat (this can be discussed later if so) but just setting a visible option made by devs, I see no point not allowing it but allowing it as another game mode in a different branch. The fact that the gameplay will often be more trivial is not a problem as the non-trivial requirement has been smacked out completely.
Seeing your pictures tho, I don't think we already discussed about multiple options that can change drasticaly how the game is played. I'm sure this will come at one point and your thoughts will come up in the discussion.
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HappyLee wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Until now, there has never been a reason to list that rule, as it is obvious to anyone in any speedrunning community that it is in bad faith to try and pass this off as a valid form of full game completion. That being said, I have edited that rule in now, as a way of clarifying the rule that we have always had and enforced.
I see that this has just been added for the Wiki: MovieRules:
"You are not allowed to skip levels with any form of intended level select feature."
So according to this new added rule, shall we remove my 04:57.31 TAS, because I skipped lots of levels with the intended level select feature called "Warp Zone"? Shall we remove the current SMB3 and SMW "any%, no ACE"TAS, because they skipped lots of levels on the world map?
The level select features are on a menu not within any game modes. In the examples you are giving : the main and only game mode.
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Because I did it at the same time, here is the fastest version of this movie in GBA mode to enable console verification, it is even worst than both other modes but I figured out it would be interesting to have it as well: User movie #638097364122315863.
If this movie was played back on console, it wouldn't be counted as a console verification for both other modes as the inputs are not only resynced to count with load differences but inputs are modified due to different RNG.
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TaoTao wrote:
But, I'm not sure whether I should replace my movie with the GBC-mode one. Are the uninitialized RAM states are the same as on real consoles? If not, it will be an issue of emulator implementations.
The unitialized RAM states are effectively the same as on real consoles, the GB/C emulation is very very good and CasualPokePlayer confirmed me that the uninit RAM has no emulation problems when I asked him to be sure.
TaoTao wrote:
Personally, I want to submit my movie in GB mode, because I think this game would be mainly targeted to GB platform. (This game was released in 1991)
I completely understand your point but as the Movie Rules says :
Movie Rules wrote:
You are not allowed to run a console game in an unintended environment, including modifying emulator settings for unintended speed advantages.
* Backwards compatibility modes, such as running Game Boy games in Game Boy Advance mode, are allowed if a physical console (or the game) supports it, unless there are noticeable audio, video, and/or gameplay-affecting glitches.
it is actually possible on a real GBC to play this game and it doesn't seem to have any noticeable audio, video or gameplay-affecting glitches, so I think it makes it allowable in this mode. I could be wrong tho.
This point is this way to let people choose the best official platform that officialy support games from other platforms to play on.
Anyway, I don't feel this improvement totally fair and I can ask to not be credited as co-author even with my improvement replacement over your version if you don't accept it.
TaoTao wrote:
For the movie endpoint, I decided to get to the "Leaving Las Vegas" screen.
Because, unlike the NES version, the game doesn't automatically proceed to it. I think I have to show all the ending contents in my movie (even if most of them are shown only for a few frames).
Yes, I didn't point this out but it makes your movie "more complete" than the previous version and also to point out the improvement calculation difference if you don't take this into account.
TaoTao wrote:
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The improvement is big compared to the previous run thanks to the new strat and I wasn't able to improve the run in its current form. It makes it a solid 1679 frames improvement compared to the previous TAS (as a note the previous run doesn't press the last input to get to the "Leaving Las Vegas" screen while this one does).
The very detailed explanation of how the RNG works makes it very eazy to verify which is appreciated !
I first tried to convert the movie in GBA mode to make the run console verified one day. Sadly, the TAS was desyncing due to the initial frame counter value beeing different because of the uninitialized RAM (00 in GB mode, 50 in GBA mode & 7F in GBC mode).
The GBC mode was the best initial value which saved 31 frames gameplay-wise (not counting BIOS time differences) thanks to the different RNG. I also tried the $1 slot route on the 3 modes thanks to the extra informations TaoTao gave me but it wasn't worth it.
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TaoTao wrote:
Hello ViGadeomes, thank you for your review.
I uploaded a movie which gets a jackpot on the $1 slot machine.
Please play it watching WRAM address $C0 (frame counter. CPU logical address is $C0C0). As you see, you have to wait until the frame counter reaches 0x6A anyway, at least on GB mode.
(Actually, you have to press button when the frame counter is 0x69)
And, my movie also starts to operate the $5 slot machine when the frame counter reaches 0x6A.
Moreover, in my movie, the first operation of the second jackpot starts without waiting frames.
Therefore, I think you cannot save any frame using the $1 slot machine.
But I'm not an expert of GB/GBC hardware, so I'll wait your review.
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TaoTao wrote:
For this purpose, it will be fastest to get a jackpot (about $5,000,000) of $5 slot machine twice. (It is a little slower to use a jackpot (about $1,000,000) of $1 slot machine)
Hello TaoTao, this is a very nice improvement to begin with !
Could you elaborate a little more on this point ? I can't link the reel value to the jackpot on the $1 slot machine. I was able to get a different & better starting value for the frame counter by using the GBC mode and been able to save some frames & would like to test the $1 slot machine route just to be sure. Then I'll post my Review ! Thanks in advance.
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feos wrote:
But after we allowed hacks for Standard, I wonder if we still want to be so strict about game translations. For example, which issues will we face if we allow fan translations on the same principles as other hacks (should not be bad and overly obscure), and outside of Standard? IMO it also makes sense to apply our usual requirement of no audiovisual or gameplay affecting glitches.
I agree with that but are there any occurences of fan translations that adds something to the game other than pure translation ? I mean by this that the way the game will be played should change because of this (RNG that takes as seed text chosen by player, fastest route beeing different because of the translation). But we also need to consider different fan translations for the same language and also 2 different languages (can be considered separately ? together ?).
These conditions can be hard to verify tho so I don't mind and will be happy for any fan translation to be acceptable as different hacks. But language differences still shouldn't be considered for obsoletion.
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Samsara wrote:
1. Should we allow "maximum score" as a standard branch universally?
Currently, we allow it as a form of full completion, but this does not catch 100% of cases, which is a bit ironic for full completion, really. The proposed change to the rule here would just be to allow "maximum score" as a branch independently of full completion. We would likely lessen the rules on methodology in this case, maybe only disallowing unassisted infinite loops and ACE.
I totally agree with this part.
Samsara wrote:
This change would also apply to timed games where the only objective method of competitive play is score. This could mean allowing timed sports games as well, but the mere thought of having that conversation again is giving me PTSD. We'll see.
I agree with timed games where you can have a final input as soon as possible but sport games are a little bit difficult for me right now...
Samsara wrote:
2. For infinite games, how do we define "maximum score"?
Max score for timed games like Sharp Shot is easy to define, but what about games like this where play can be infinite? Some of the prior discussion in this thread has revolved around the nature of this game's score counter, and defining maximum score in relation to that counter is an important distinction for us to make, especially if we're going to broaden how we treat the category itself. In this case, the distinction is between the displayed score and the internal score counter. The display score is indeed maxed out and overflowed, but the game continues to internally keep track of score beyond that. Should we demand that a maximum score run max out the internal counter, or should we just stick to display score?
I will here continue with my rule change suggestion posted on the proper thread that has a new fresh look thanks to this situation:
I would say internal score should be the only matter :
1) display score is overflowed and comes back to 0 : no problem i think.
2) display score is overflowed and locked at the max value : same but if not possible, we count it ourselves.
3) display score is overflowed and glitched : internal counter is the only way to keep tracks of the score in this situation so this is the only way.
For this submission, I would also like to give a suggestion: like at one point with infinite games for fastest completion : We could accept both TASes that go for max displayed score and max internal counted score but the one that goes further point will obsolete the other (not only max displayed score VS. max internally counted score) ? It should mean than with this, this run should be accepted and could be obsoleted with a maximum internal score.
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I had this in my pocket since a long time but since I knew it was planned to discuss about it (from staff) at one point, I decided to not share it right away. But now that it is too long for me to keep it, let's share it ;) (I understand staff has a lot to do and this is not your fault).
I would like to propose a change on the "maximum score" rule and in particular, overflows where there are 3 different cases :
The score locks at a certain value, doesn't stop running and has no glitches because of that : the devs thought about a case where the player gets more than this and to not make the game bug/crash or anything made a maximum value but we could still count the rest of the score added to the final score by ourselves and so we would need to maximize it even if the score counter doesn't count anymore.
The score overflows to 0, the memory allocated for the score isn't enough but the score is still working, games could potentially even store the real score in its RAM, the devs could have think about it and was then intended but due to space in memory/on screen, time or because everyone was doing it this way it wasn't possible to go further. Since we still have the score just not the higher numbers, we can still know what is the score and so I think it is not a problem.
The score overflows but is glitched or the game isn't working normally, (while I'm less confident about it) we should then maximize the score while not making it glitching like stopping it at the very last/maximum number before the score glitches.
