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When are the #1 Trousers unlocked in the game? Is it after defeating Birdo or do you have access to them earlier? Can we figure that out while using the Events function of your script?
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Mugg, do you happen to know a website of some sorts that lists every boss' item drops?
We really need to know what items each boss drops for our All Bosses route. We decided to use English version over Japanese for the main reason that mush badge is way more broken on English and bosses can be killed far faster than Japanese could ever dream of.
We have checked sites like mariowiki but that is a pretty confusing site honestly.
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Fortranm wrote:
Who could have guessed that the first game in the series wouldn't get a TAS submitted until years after the second and the third ones did?
If you really think about it, this game was the first in the series with a TAS, then then Bowser's Inside Story was the second and Partners in Time was the third.
Partners in Time is the first with 2 TASes, Bowser's Inside Story was the second, and now Superstar Saga is the third one with 2 TASes.
So now the scene should be shifting back to Superstar Saga for being the first one with 3 TASes. We will begin routing for the second category, still have to decide if we want to do All Bosses or Glitchless.
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NEVERDOORS wrote:
Easiest yes vote of my life. Truly a treat to watch! I remember when barrel storage was found years ago and it's really satisfying to see it finally used optimally to it's full potential. Amazing job :)
Barrel Storage was also used to its full potential in the old TAS from 2012 done by mugg. Other than finding a way to get High Jump on Mario for english, not much was really found that involved barrel storage. Hat teleportation was the glitch who was truly used to its full potential this time, which allowed us to go past many walls. We spent almost 7 months documenting and understanding how it works and how to get the most out of it.
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TheKDX7 wrote:
TAS incredible and I am absolutely delighted that this game can finally arrive on the site alongside the other two games.
I had a quick question though, why don't you use Luigi's special attack (knockback Bros.) on Cackletta's heart? Doesn't it do enough damage to be used?
Obviously yes vote
The reason why we don't use it is not actually because it doesn't do enough damage. Watch how with Luigi we do different attacks basically everytime (we use hammer, we use jump or we fail a jump). This is to manipulate RNG.
When you hammer an enemy, the game does 4 RNG calls, meaning it advances RNG 4 times if you get a great on it. When you jump on an enemy and you get a great on it, the game does only 1 RNG call, and when you jump but fail the jump the game doesn't advance RNG at all. But why is it useful to know this you might ask? Well, you see, none of the Bros. attacks advance RNG at all. Consuming an item in battle also doesn't advance RNG. The reason why we don't use Knockback Bros. more often is because it is way slower than failing a jump, even though we do more damage than a failed jump, but the extra damage usually doesn't save or lose any turns. Also, when the heart is revealed in the Cackletta bossfight, even if we somehow kill any of the body parts, she will revive and heal all of them to full health, meaning Knockback Bros. there is literally useless.
So, there's your full answer.
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I forgot to document this anywhere but about 3-4 days ago, we found out how to squeeze 1 more hit with Chopper Bros for the heart of Cackletta (I'm not sure if this can be done for every other fight, I haven't tested it yet).
The previously thought "maximum hits counter" done with Chopper Bros was 26 hits by pressing A every other frame starting from the first frame you can start attack on until it ends. However, I discovered that after the first hit, the second hit doesn't actually have time to register and it deals no damage. So, I waited 2 frames instead of 1 for the second hit, then pressed A every other frame from there, and I managed to do 27 hits in 1 chopper bros attack. This may not seem like much, but it may be able to save a turn in some fights or save time by not having to collect as many mushrooms.
Also, just a quick reminder that the new Any% TAS is premiering tomorrow, at 2:30PM EST. We are also going to commentate it live on my twitch channel so if you want to hear the explanations for all the craziness that this run will provide, feel free to watch us there.
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A player by the name of RETIRE joined the M&L Discord server a few days ago. He is an experienced glitch hunter in other communities such as SM64DS. He was interested in figuring out what caused Barrel Storage in combination with Sign Glitch to make the game unable to set our action commands to the proper ones. Over the course of a few days this is what he discovered.
There is a variable at $2440 and $2430 in IWRAM that keeps track of the action commands for Luigi and Mario respectively. Normally, when you break out of a barrel, without doing Barrel Storage, the game simply sets the third byte in $2440 to FF. But how it does that is pretty interesting; it copies the third byte to the first byte, and then it copies the fourth byte to the 3rd byte. The first byte is the action command of Luigi when he is in front. When you're inside of the barrel, the third byte is usually 00, and when you're not inside the barrel the byte is FF instead. With barrel storage however, you are inside the barrel, but the third byte is set to FF. Now, if you break out of the barrel, like I said, the third byte gets copied to the first byte, meaning the first byte is now also FF, which means Luigi will have the blank action command on his A button.
So the question then becomes: what happens if we now talk to the sign? Well, if we talk to the sign, the first byte is changed to 00. But again, the game handles this a bit differently; what is actually happening is the first byte is copied to the fourth byte, and it sets the first byte to 00. A very important note to make is that the first byte is copied to the fourth byte before the interaction with the sign, which means even though the first byte is set to 00, the fourth byte is still FF. Because the fourth byte is FF, it will keep the action command of talking to the sign even if you get away from it.
Now let's go back to the variable at $2430: the first byte there is set to 02, which means you should be talking to a sign, but you still have the normal Jump. However, after you switch, this byte is responsible for being able to change action commands past its intended limit.
Here is a video by RETIRE demonstrating everything that I wrote here.
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TiKevin83 wrote:
Atari2600 Dragster's code was evaluated mathematically and the current TAS effectively proven to be unimprovable
http://tasvideos.org/5876S.html
He says that in his message that Dragster is already maxed out.
Patashu wrote:
Dragster and Zool SMS are two obviously maxed out games due to being short and bot analyzed
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Patashu wrote:
What TASes on the site are the least likely to be made faster, ever? Either because there's an exhaustive proof that it can't be any faster, or because there doesn't seem likely for any possible improvement to even be available.
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MUGG wrote:
@Potato
You cannot do it in the chateau maze. The left corner clip works because the passage is one tile wide. No such instance exists in the maze. You also cannot use tunnel clip in that room. At least as far as I tested.
Mario does not need to be flattened to do left corner clip.
Unfortunately I cannot help much with Cackletta.
Obviously you want to avoid long lasting attacks. Remember that RNG scrolls differently depending on your action in battle. In my old TAS, I chose Luigi's action depending what gives the best pattern.
Also remember that the enemy pattern changes depending what frame you enter the battle. So try waiting on the last text box before Bowletta.
Try waiting 0 frames, 1 frame, 2 frames, 3 frames ... Test all the scenarios.
I am happy to announce that I have finally done the Cackletta fight and finished the TAS after 40 hours of trying over and over for good Cackletta RNG. The final time of the TAS is sub 1, in fact it's even sub 59:30, and I'm very happy with the fight that I got even if it's definitely not the best.
You have to consider that we don't have a bruteforce script for Cackletta and making one will require a LOT of time to make, a lot more than just 40 hours over the course of 4 days. However, a perfect fight could definitely bring the time down to sub 59 minutes but I am not going to be the one to take it that low yet unfortunately.
EDIT: The final product will be premiered on my YouTube channel on the 16th of this month, at 2:30PM EST. There is also going to be a live commentary on my Twitch channel at the same time the video will be premiered, and it will also be submitted to TASvideos around the same time.
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MUGG wrote:
I should mention that you can left corner bug the left side of the throne, but I haven't been able to clip the back brother. If it could be done on the right side with both brothers, you could do the clip you want.
Would this be possible to do in the Chateau maze room actually? There are a whole lot of left corners there. Does Mario need to be in a flattened state in order for it to work?
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Do you happen to have or do you know of any way to get the enemy script for Cackletta? We're trying to see how to manipulate RNG more effectively to get all hand attacks and 3 hand spin attacks (I figured out it is not possible to get just the hand flick attacks for the entirety of the fight because Cackletta's head can only do the hand spin attack and the energy ball attack).
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MUGG wrote:
The part you circled in red is the cutscene trigger, right?
The cutscene trigger is a few pixels away from that red circled platform. I circled it bcs I wanted to see if we could do luigi mole clipping on it, since it is a right ledge.
MUGG wrote:
I'm also thinking if you could hat teleport into the closed door in the barrel room while escaping.
Yes, you can do that, however, we lose High Jump on Mario after we reach the first loading zone in Bowser's Castle because we need to get "Barrel Hop" on Mario's B button to activate the door for when we come back from Bowletta. I have tested hat teleporting into Bowser's Castle room 1 loading zone so that we keep High Jump on Mario and while it is possible it wastes 10+ seconds setting the Follow Path (because of being unable to set the follow path neither in Bowser's Castle bcs we can't reach the right X, nor in hoohoo mountain bcs we can't reach the right Y for the warp).
EDIT: This is also the reason why a teleport past the cutscene wouldn't do the trick. 1 reason being that we don't have High Jump on Mario anymore and even if we kept it somehow it takes 7-8 seconds to do the setup (and the cutscene is only 3-4 seconds long).
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Potato wrote:
Manipulating RNG in those 2 fights should save at the very least 25-30 seconds, if not more. So the question then becomes how will we save the remaining 40-50 seconds, to which I don't know the answer yet.
UPDATE 2: Turns out, I have severely underestimated how much time getting fast attacks in Cackletta can save over the slow ones. I did some calculus to figure out the lengths in frames of all the attacks that we did and I also calculated how much time we could save in total if we got only hand attacks in Cackletta.
The results are this: this movie's final time was 1:01:16.313 without doing any RNG manipulations before the battle, or 219577 frames to be more exact. If we got 2 eye attacks from Bowletta, we could save 217 frames, and if we got all hand attacks in Cackletta we could save a whopping 5835 frames just in Cackletta. This adds up to 6052 frames that have the potential to be saved.
This shatters the movie's final time, from 1:01:16.313, to a 59:34.59, or 213525 frames, and that's not taking into account another 6-7 second timesave that involves getting "hop on barrel" action command on Luigi instead of Mario and then use it to activate the switch in room 3 (the stairs room) on our way towards Bowletta's lair to skip having to grab the barrel at the far left of the room.
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I was thinking of using Luigi Mole clipping glitch in this room after defeating Bowletta to skip the cutscene with Prince Peasly. Do you think this idea would work mugg?
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I know the old TAS did barrel clipping at the start, but because we are on the English version and not Japanese we can't really do that. I was scratching my head as to how to skip those fences but I couldn't come up with a better way.
About teleporting, there are a few things that are worth mentioning. Because we warp from a "ledge" (again, in my words ledge means anything with Z different than 0) and because we can only teleport horizontally, not upwards or downwards (though there is a way to sort of get around teleporting upwards that I explained in one of my previous posts) this means Luigi will end up in the air at the same Z level as the ground that he teleported from was on. So we'll have to use emerge to get back down, because Luigi obviously can't move in the air, which means we'll cancel glitched movement and when we will warp the next time we will have to do the full setup. We tried this idea already but we found out it was slower by a few seconds. Keep in mind that the setup for changing action commands and getting glitched movement from Luigi takes about 7 seconds on average, not including the time we spend setting the Follow Path, so this means that if a room is faster than 7 seconds, then it's not really worth doing a teleport, unless we can preserve glitched movement through the loading zone.
EDIT: 1 more thing to add: Teleporting out of bounds like you barrel clipped in your old TAS doesn't really give the same results. Luigi gets stuck in the wall even after emerging.
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Potato wrote:
So far we're in Bowser's Castle with the TAS, in room 1 to be specific, so we have been making steady progress in the meantime. We have a good shot at getting sub 1 hour but it's gonna be tougher than we thought it was.
UPDATE: I have now finished an "early" version of the TAS and the final time that I got with this was 219577 frames, or 1:01:16.313.
What do I mean by "early" version of the TAS? Well, I mean a version that is optimised everywhere else except for Bowser's Castle. I finished it just out of pure curiosity to see what times we should expect from the final time of the final product.
I didn't manipulate RNG in the Bowletta and Cackletta fights (because we still have a bunch more teleports to fully optimise that it wouldn't make sense to try and manipulate RNG if it's gonna change anyway) and I got very poor attacks from Cackletta.
Manipulating RNG in those 2 fights should save at the very least 25-30 seconds, if not more. So the question then becomes how will we save the remaining 40-50 seconds, to which I don't know the answer yet. We will have to optimise absolutely everything there is left to optimise and pray that it saves just enough time to cut through the 1 hour barrier, but we'll be cutting it way closer than I originally anticipated.
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MUGG wrote:
It works on ledges, regardless of Z.
But depends on what you consider a ledge. A ledge is most often a ground that has the Z different than 0. What I would like to know is that if it's possible to perform on normal ground (which based on your explanations, seem to not be the case)
MUGG wrote:
What does that mean?
Say for example, in the gif that you used, there was a wall at the end of that ledge on the right side of the ledge, where you managed to clip. This would mean the trick would not work, right?
EDIT: In the reply that you quoted I typed "left direction" when in reality I meant the "right direction". My bad.
EDIT 2: I now corrected my mistake there. Hope that doesn't create a lot of confusion.
Another thing I'd like to know is if the Follow Path influences clipping into walls or not with this technique. I would assume it doesn't but if it does then it would be way harder to pull it off.
MUGG wrote:
Are you trying to use the trick in Bowser's Castle room 1? I may have tried that and failed, but I can't remember.
I am trying to use it in Stardust Fields room 2 (the room after the room with Pipe 1, which I consider to be room 1) to skip over that fence and reach the loading zone earlier.
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MUGG wrote:
Potato wrote:
Hey Mugg, I hope you're still around here somewhere, because we need you to clarify how Luigi Mole clipping works. This can have a lot of potential for timesave for the TAS, but we're not sure how it exactly works. What are the conditions of it occuring? From your videos I was only able to figure out that you need to hammer Luigi in a spot where the Z is different than 0 and that is close enough to the edge of the ledge.
The Game Resources page doesn't really cover it in great detail, I've read it but couldn't get much information over just watching your 2 videos.
So, it only works on ledges that are above Z = 0 right? But does it also work for right ledges that are blocked by a wall in the right direction?
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dekutony wrote:
Good luck with finishing the TAS!
Thanks.
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Potato wrote:
Also, we made a bunch more discoveries about hat teleporting.
1. If you manage to teleport into a floor that has a loading zone above it, you can use the "Emerge" action command to get warped up to the floor's height, however, when you come out on the other side of the loading zone, you still keep glitched movement. We used this to our advantage in teehee room 1.
2. When you jump into a loading zone when Luigi is underground before having glitched movement, the follow path doesn't update normally and you can easily preserve the follow path while moving around.
And probably some more that I can't remember.
This is an interesting application of the first point. By entering the castle loading zone from below using 49 Emerge, we keep hat Luigi and glitched movement through this cutscene. (which is not supposed to happen, if you try to enter the cutscene as regular hat Luigi you get automatically emerged)
This messes with part of the cutscene in a pretty hilarious way, as shown here.
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Potato wrote:
Also, we made a bunch more discoveries about hat teleporting.
1. If you manage to teleport into a floor that has a loading zone above it, you can use the "Emerge" action command to get warped up to the floor's height, however, when you come out on the other side of the loading zone, you still keep glitched movement. We used this to our advantage in teehee room 1.
2. When you jump into a loading zone when Luigi is underground before having glitched movement, the follow path doesn't update normally and you can easily preserve the follow path while moving around.
And probably some more that I can't remember.
So far we're in Bowser's Castle with the TAS, in room 1 to be specific, so we have been making steady progress in the meantime. We have a good shot at getting sub 1 hour but it's gonna be tougher than we thought it was.
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Also, we made a bunch more discoveries about hat teleporting.
1. If you manage to teleport into a floor that has a loading zone above it, you can use the "Emerge" action command to get warped up to the floor's height, however, when you come out on the other side of the loading zone, you still keep glitched movement. We used this to our advantage in teehee room 1.
2. When you jump into a loading zone when Luigi is underground before having glitched movement, the follow path doesn't update normally and you can easily preserve the follow path while moving around.
And probably some more that I can't remember.
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Hey Mugg, I hope you're still around here somewhere, because we need you to clarify how Luigi Mole clipping works. This can have a lot of potential for timesave for the TAS, but we're not sure how it exactly works. What are the conditions of it occuring? From your videos I was only able to figure out that you need to hammer Luigi in a spot where the Z is different than 0 and that is close enough to the edge of the ledge.
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