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Samsara wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Is there a discussion thread of the movie rule change about educational games?
No
Can I request a debate thread being made by a judge so I can read the staff's thoughts about the rule changes and reword and submit my post there? I'm looking particularly for Wheel of Fortune and another rejected educational TAS which name I currently can't recall. It was rejected by ThunderAxe31 if I'm correct. I'm trying to load the page http://tasvideos.org/RejectedSubmissions.html but it seems to load eternally.
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Replying to feos:
So this means the answers to my questions would be No (there is no notification system for TASVideos' players), No(the movie file will be replaced and it will be reencoded, but not rejudged, retaining his original player points while new votes might come) (the original player going to lose player points because the formula's O is going to be 10^-6 instead of 1), No (player points not awarded for resyncers), Yes (thanks to the previous 2 question + answer), right?
I guess this is OK. Will definitely want to revisit this thread once the rules ironed out.
I'm unsure about why is it required to submit it as a new publication. Did I misread Mothrayas and adelikat's opinion regarding this (as they were not directly answered to this) on this particular Phil and Genisto scenario? Or you just simply have a different opinion?
edit: I was about to edit the probable answers to add Phil and Genisto example (which was using the "community liked it" as a reason for officially supporting this kind of resyncing) while feos already posted it. So I changed the answer for 2nd to Yes and last one to No. I would be glad if you next time just answer my questions instead of showing another scenarios.
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So good notes and answers from both of you!
Well yes, looks like the only authorship is my concern for "potential fear":
An old TAS needs resync. Author is called A. Resyncer called R. R has access to a new emulator which A didn't had during the time of submission/judgement.
1. Will A gets notified before R attempts to resyncing it?
2. Will A retain his player points after R submits it and it gets accepted?
3. Will R gain player points after he submits it?
My personal opinion would be Yes, Yes, No, but it obviously depends on other things like how hard was it to resync. I think R should gain player points (which is currently calculated from the number of authors and the votes given by the community who watched and voted for this movie) without impairing A's (increasing player points to show his experience and work done with TASes).
edit: a 4th question would be: Will A gain player points after R submits it, which in my opinion he probably should, I mean Yes.
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Woohoo! Looks like my last non joke comment seems to be up to date with questions unanswered (according to Mothrayas it is answered, but I don't see it in this thread) but it's more about the rules for these type of games.
Is there a discussion thread of the movie rule change about educational games?
edit: Nach's old page of rejected games from the previous movie rules page:
Wiki: Nach/HistoryOfGamesAndRelevanceHere
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Oh you are right. Also I wanted to ask something in the long term. I'm not sure the motivational force coming from increased emulation accuracy might be enough for resyncers.
For example I would personally enjoy resyncing as I can learn from the TAS and TASer while doing it. I'm unsure about why would someone resort to resyncing instead of TASing.
I can't really express my potential fear of someone misusing this system who would try to resync very old movies which probably gets new windows of possibilities which the previous TASer didn't had as the emulator wasn't published at the time.
Just want to be sure the rules gets ironed out before officially supporting it. edit: it gets official support
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feos wrote:
It's mentioned in official docs as a non-cheat feature so it's fine.
I don't know about any official docs from Valve that mentions this.
The official docs I know is...
1 - the readme.txt inside the hl.exe directory: the readme.txt mentions the following line:
SETTING UP A LISTEN SERVER IN THE LAUNCHER OR THE CONSOLE
If you are setting up your listen server variables in the launcher then all settings are stored in a file called 'game.cfg' which is located in the 'valve' directory of your installation. If you would like to modify settings at the console, you must either edit this file directly using notepad, or delete this file and modify all server settings at the console.
Note that binding the console to a key (which is tilde originally) is not enough to enable the console.
2- and the Half-Life SDK release which doesn't mentions anything about the usage of console apart from developer comments in the source code.
3 - the game manual which doesn't mentions the usage of console (I have the GOTY one)
The website you were referring to is a crowd-sourced wiki about Source and later games, not about GoldSrc games.
edit2: here is a GoldSrc relevant page from that wiki https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Command_Line_Options#Goldsource_Games <-- you will see -console under the deprecated command-line parameters.
That's why https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Developer_Console says that it's enabled by default which is not the case for the versions I tested and what files have been used in Half-Life TASes.
I have a lot of Half-Life knowledge so if you have any kind of information to prove your line that the console usage is a non-cheat feature which I don't have, I could verify it's credibility or even hunt down that particular page where this have been written down.
feos wrote:
It's mentioned in official docs as a non-cheat feature so it's fine.
Same answer as above.
feos wrote:
Depends on what official docs say.
I'm not sure what do you expect from the video game developers on having a technical note explaining how much you should manipulate their video game's framerate. I don't think this is a realistic expectation.
feos wrote:
We won't have to use those mods for a tasvideos publication. As long as a libTAS movie syncs on some official release of the game, it's acceptable.
If the Half-Life TAS projects use modified (game-changing) files, the encoder, publisher or anyone who tries to sync will need to use them.
The problem here is not the speedrun helping tools but the non-existing combination of files that doesn't derived from a single officially released version.
A simple glance at the directory of files shows that both 1.0.1.6, 1.1.0.6 and 1.1.2.2 has different files, different filesize, different directories.
Note that I'm not against this nature, I just want to point it out that as far as I see, this is not just Base game + dll injecting speedrun assisting tools but it's a Base game + different version of different files + modified game files + removed game files.
edit: A tasvideos movie rules friendly Half-Life TAS would use a version where console is enabled by default (after counter-strike 1.5 beta, before 1.1.2.1) and would spend a few time on typing out all the commands required to pull this off. This would still exclude known phenomena of manipulating FPS in RTA environments. If libTAS supports this, than probably it could be submitted.
edit3: Let me reiterate what I see in the TAS tools and what I know about Half-Life
- there is no official list of every commands possible for GoldSrc. While there is a cmdlist command, it doesn't lists every possible command.
- there is no official list of every command classified as cheat or non cheat. There are many console commands that able to change crucial values that affects the gameplay while they don't even think as a cheat. Cheating for normal half-life players would be impulse 101 and sv_cheats 1 and other. However sv_cheats only blocks a list of commands, not every possible command having an impact on gameplay giving you an advantage over others.
- The half-life release notes on Steam only goes back to 2013, where the console probably already set to enabled by default. I believe there was no CD release of Half-Life with the console enabled by default (you need to add -console to gain access to it)
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I've read the actual discussion (all post from the page you linked) and I think my information is up to date.
I've reiterated the 2 major points these TASes would use and the reason they are not allowed currently according to the contents of what I linked from Movie Rules.
What are you trying to referring to?
edit: I believe there was a misunderstanding or somehow the information exchange wasn't successful.
None of the Half-Life TASes were done on an original version. Half-Life TASes uses specially crafted files from different versions to get a new game with the desired features. Imagine as a NES game but the ROM they use uses code from an Alpha version and a Beta version, creating an entirely new game that wasn't released anytime by the developers. They didn't even had this version of their own game.
Another example would be that while this is still Half-Life, multiple files have been removed, added, changed to get this package what YaLTeR develops.
- the https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/goldsrc-package-2-4/2634 page describes what files and what changes made to make this package
- https://www.speedrun.com/hl1/guide/878qr bottom video explains the main differences
- the used version for WON never had a release with console enabled without using a launching parameter or manually editing a config file (tested 1.1.0.6 WON and 1.0.1.6, GoldSrc Package 2.4 uses 1.1.0.7 WON dll but not all dll files)
I believe the first version where half-life launches with a console without modifying any files or launching parameters is after Counter-Strike 1.5 beta test. This is after 1.1.0.7 and before 1.1.2.1
The Steam version of Half-Life's changelog does not mention the console being added by default. edit2: This is mostly the developers fault. One of the update or the first release on Steam should have did it (the Counter-strike 1.5 beta test was the 5th game on Steam and the beta client already had the prototype of steam while the game was distributed through simple installers before steam was released)
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Just wanted to reiterate why all the Half-Life TASes done are not compatible with TASVideos current Movie Rules.
Please note that I'm writing these down from the top of my head, but I believe my information should be correct.
#1 - Enabling the console requires to launch the game with an additional parameter or changing one of the .cfg files that gets executed once the game launches.
Conflicts with the following rules:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#NoTamperingWithTheFilesTheGameIsComposedOfhttp://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#PcGameEnvironmentMustBeLegitimate
#2 - Manipulating FPS seems to be still not allowed
Conflicts with the following rule:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#PcGameEnvironmentMustBeLegitimate
Number 2 also affects TASes like Elasto Mania and any other TAS that requires manipulating the framerate to a specific value using either developer code or an external application.
This means any TAS that uses a platform which has an original built-in OS with the ability to switch between applications or running multiple applications or any physical techniques to manipulate FPS:
- J2ME (KVM), Android, iOS and some other mobile platform
- Mac, Windows, Linux and some other computer platform
- Sixth generation and some other later video game consoles
edit: new stuff in bolded: clarified that I'm talking about a selection of, not all platforms of.
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"How to set another side of the disk while we making TAS with TAS Editor?"
You can't. You need to do it outside of TAS Editor.
edit: The only way to do it from TAS Editor is opening a movie file with the FDS disk commands present. Select the line, copy and paste it to your desired location.
Method 1 - From FCEUX:
- open FCEUX
- open ROM
- open movie file
- record your movie file
- NES > Eject/Insert disk
- NES > Switch disk side
- stop recording your movie file
- You can now launch TAS Editor
Method 2 - With a text editor:
- open your movie file in a text editor
- make sure the movie header has FDS set to true (not sure what is the correct line)
- notice the commands part of the lines where you want to add FDS disk commands
- input log format: |commands|port0|port1|port2|
- 4 = FDS Disk Insert
- 8 = FDS Disk Select
- save and close your movie file
- You can now launch TAS Editor
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I've just realized that you seem to be a new TASer judging by your post counts. I'm impressed by your first movie if that's the case and I see you are eager to learn.
Haven't watched the whole TAS through an emulator, so now I can only say: keep up the good work! :)
Here's my notes for the lines of your snippet:
(the numbers became colorful because I've used this tag: [code=lua])
Language: lua
B898: A9 80 LDA #$80 ;load the hexadecimal number 0x80 to A(ccumulator)
B89A: 85 84 STA $84 ;save A to 0x84 memory address
B89C: A5 FE LDA $FE ;load the value of 0xFE memory address to A
B89E: D0 10 BNE $B8B0 ;if the zero flag is not set, branch to the subroutine located @ B8B0.
Looks like zero flag is set, so we stay at the current branch.
The zero flag is the 2nd from the right of the processor status registers.
You need to open the debugger or change your emulator settings to be able to see these values.
Probably supported by both FCEUX and BizHawk.
B8A0: A5 EE LDA $EE ;load the value of 0xEE memory address to A
B8A2: 29 07 AND #$07 ;is the result of A && 7 is true?
B8A4: C9 03 CMP #$03 ;is the value equals with 3?
B8A6: 90 04 BCC $B8AC ;if the clear flag is not set, branch to the subroutine located @ B8AC.
Looks like the clear flag is set, so we stay at the current branch.
The clear flag is the last one of the processor status registers.
B8A8: C9 06 CMP #$06 ;is the value equals with 6?
B8AA: D0 04 BNE $B8B0 ;same as 4th line. Zero flag not set.
B8AC: A9 C0 LDA #$C0 ;load the hexadecimal number 0xC0 to A
B8AE: 85 84 STA $84 ;save A to 0x84
Feel free to ask any questions, I might able to answer it.
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Now that you mentioned camera scrolling, I think NES Hokuto no Ken also requires it for entering doors, not just Kenshiro's position.
So projectile boosting would help if you are at the right cam position but Kenshiro isn't, sacrificing 1 health for a few horizontal position advance.
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Regarding lag frames around loading parts being different, I meant that I'm interested in which behaviour is the correct (FCEUX vs BizHawk). Let me show some example:
#1 From #3893: MESHUGGAH's NES Driar in 05:14.45 submission text:
To make this TAS sync in Bizhawk 1.4.0, you need to add an extra lag frame after showing the level number of 18 and 22.
Elaboration: two (seemingly random, why these) levels requires 1 extra empty frame because they load 1 frame longer.
The submission text links to the BizHawk sync movie after this quote I wrote.
#2 From #3947: MESHUGGAH's NES The California Raisins: The Grape Escape in 04:51.50 submission text:
It's possible to make a BizHawk sync by adding 2 lagframes before the start and 1 lagframe for starting the level.
Elaboration: I think this should apply to the improved movie which is this:
[4053] NES The California Raisins: The Grape Escape by MESHUGGAH & AIVV73 in 04:15.83
This means you need to add 2 empty frames in the very beginning and 1 empty frame for each time I start a level (4 times as there's 4 maps in the level game)
edit: fixed some words
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Replying to Patashu's This is the only level flash game by jmtb02:
- the game has a barrier that can only be passed after 2 minutes at stage 25
- the remaining levels consists of holding the right button and jumping sometimes
Assuming that the gameplay has been maxed (no other tricks to employ, positions were optimized to reach the level ends as fast as possible), the only possible way to break the record would be using a different platform...
The author of the game had a contest of his own game around 2009, which consisted of completing the game with the minimum number of actions.
The game had a simple way of recording your actions which could be copy pasted and sent so a judge can verify that it's a legitimate way of beating a level.
Someone on the contest forum was able to finish a level 1 action fewer, which seemed impossible when replayed.
Later they figured out that the majority of people were using Windows while this particular user was using Linux.
The floating point error difference between the two platforms led to desync a legitimate strategy for Linux on a Windows machine.
Notes:
- Couldn't find any information about the contest
- Unsure about which particular game was, but the gameplay was very similar to Warpshot.
- Warpshot game link: http://www.jmtb02.com/warpshot
- Warpshot in-game video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWQZbzTYb6c
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This TAS can be improved by
- at least 3 frames by better menu handling in the beginning
- the ending of the first level by better killing of the enemies
edit: according to my notes:
frame in this movie, frame in my lost WIP, improvement note
Start
801, 798, Better menu handling
Level 1 end
3606, 3534, better manipulation
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I've lost my WIP which ended around the "Rutherfords" scene 2:30 in the encode.
Here's my notes that might improve this TAS:
- Jumping gives 2x speed for 1 frame (when you jump).
- You can increase the speed of βlaser trapsβ if you alarm them (striped two-colored ground or switches on the wall)
- If you hold left or right as long as you touch the floor from air with 2.0px/f, you can wait as long as you want, then continue to run or jump with 2.0px/f instantly, instead of waiting the speed meter to reach that level. This is very useful for optimizing the delays to avoid touching the laser beams.
You can verify you are in the right state by pressing only jump. which will result in jumping forward in the direction you are facing with 2.0px/f instead of simply jumping without moving horizontally.
- You can get inside boxes and you can pull them while inside. This way you can also jump while falling and even move forward while bringing the box with you. As far as I remember, getting inside a box can be done from below and from above as well.
- Check out B holding punch --> I'm not sure what I meant about this, as I don't remember the ability to punch.
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In case you need more games to test:
https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Tricky-to-emulate_games
edit:
Looks like you probably already know this page.
While I'm not sure what is the actual stuff you are researching, but I think we have more TASes of NES games using MMC3 mapper that has gameplay part with DMC samples being played. You are looking for games like this, right? If you say yes, I guess I could compile some example games and TASes for you.
I'm a bit surprised that Battletoads worked while Nightshade doesn't.
Reacting to a previous post by Alyosha:
Also Paperboy is the only TAS I try that requires 3 blank frames to get things syncing, every other game requires 1, so another indicator that something is up.
You mean adding 1 empty frame to the TAS so it syncs on console? Some of my NES TASes from around 2016 has notes in the submission text about adding 1-2 empty frames to an FCEUX TAS to make it sync on BizHawk. So.. you required to add even one more empty frame? Or this doesn't covers loading parts of a game between levels, only at the very start of powering up?
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I currently can't find where did I wrote down, but it's possible to use the level 3 jet glitch for the following effects:
- warp to next level (done in this TAS)
- warp to game end glitch (done in the any% geg TAS)
- reset level (not useful)
- reset game (not useful as what happens in FCEUX and BizHawk with the default starting RAM, it's not enough to make any change of memory values to survive after starting the game. This wasn't researched as changing starting RAM values is not allowed on tasvideos)
- warp 2 levels forward. While the image and sound plays, I couldn't really warp there. edit2: the blue haired boss cutscene just restarted everytime it's ended when I've tried
- warp to grambled level (not useful, because invisible walls, no ending point, etc)
- warp to another grambled level (same)
- create a new object (done in [2100] NES Battletoads "game end glitch" by TheZlomuS & DyLaX in 01:02.68)
Is there a reason you didn't tried to create the warp 2 levels ahead object?
edit: my question applies for the warpless TAS aswell [4267] NES Battletoads "warpless, 2 players" by Lobsterzelda in 19:15.11, which also does the "go to next level" ABSTUDLR trick.[/quote]
edit2: Because of the short "payload" part of memory corrupting in the any% TAS, I've only tried to warp 2 levels ahead with very limited possibilities. I believe it's possible to fix the remaining object slots and jump to a desired PC point.
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Unfortunately I have lost my WIP.
hisatoki's TAS only completes the 1st loop, while the game is considered to be beaten after completing the 2nd loop, which shows the congratulations screen.
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In NES Hokuto No Ken (the previous game in the series, as this is Hokuto No Ken 2, source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki%2FFist_of_the_North_Star_%28NES_video_game%29%23Development+%29
you can manipulate enemy projectiles to spawn behind Kenshiro and boost from them, trading health for speed.
Is this possible in this version also?
little bit elaborated NES Hokuto No Ken mechanic:
- nearly every button on every frame changes the outcome of a projectile being spawn, the position of the projectile and the direction of the projectile
- hitting a projectile boosts him if it hits Kenshiros from the back while it flies to him (looks like this happens in this version as well, those blue projectiles following you and the way they boost you forward)
- a projectile is usually 1 dmg but there are other projectiles, damaging more
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Too broad to be useful:
The project tries to aim at all audiences and there are many overlapping areas. Imagine the current state of my repository as pages of tasvideos wiki while there will be different books for different roles.
For example, an Atari 7800 TASer will probably want the following things:
- Information, research, time management (what to search and where to search)
- Atari 7800 platform and games information (what's possible to do and what's been done)
- 7800Hawk information (emulation and console verification states)
- Mathematics (binary, hex, data types, probability, statistics, etc)
- Resources (youtube channels, various sites with information of various games, script repos, gamefaqs, video game maps)
- Techniques (disassembly, lua scripting, test strategies, documenting, teamworking, etc)
- Games (meta game states, possibilities per platform per games, etc)
- Computers (assembly, part of computers, 1s and 0s, etc)
These kind of selection and organizing of materials can be done with a simple HTML page displaying the relevant parts for relevant readers. Press / Media only wants simple explanation, examples and events, maybe interviews. An encoder wants very different things. A TASer needs even more.
So an Atari 7800 TASer would go to the repository and would ideally click on 7800 TASing, which would then have something similar to what I elaborated above.
There are many informations that won't be duplicated but linked from external source.
I understand that my repository seems very clunky and information overload as well as scattered. I will try to clean up and show some mock up page how it works out in reality.
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