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I read the submission text, and I watched the movie... but what are the exact goals of the movie? (As in, what would someone need to do to obsolete this movie?)
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Most logical seems to me one movie as fast as possible with no restrictions whatsoever (any%), and one movie which collects 100% in every level. If it turns out you can go back several times to 1-1 to collect 100% faster, I think that should be banned (for 100% tas), since the goal of these TASes is entertainment after all.
I can see that if a glitched any% run is submitted people won't want to have it obsolete the current movie if there isn't a 100% one yet. Maybe it's better if a 100% movie obsoletes the current movie, and the glitched movie doesn't.
If there is a movie which completes the game as fast as possible, and a 100% movie, an any% nonglitched movie probably doesn't show much more than the other two movies do.
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Finally, I got 2 red tetrisses at death mode!
Here is the movie.
Movie doesn't look as impressive as it could have been, since I was pretty lucky... and actually made the second red tetris only 1 minute and 40 seconds after the game started. Didn't really know if I should have played on after the second red tetris. I decided to do so, but nothing real good came out of it. Final score was a little over 2 million.
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That's a pretty nice feature. It seems to work pretty well, although for both the regular zelda run, and the outlands run more than 1/3th of the screenshots are at the menu screen.
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4matsy wrote:
It appears that the TC'ers have caught on to this one.
Good luck defending, Baxter. =P
I wouldn't mind being beaten. The more people play it, the better. No doubt they have the skill to beat me, but they will need to actually play the game. It kinda reminds me of what DK64_MASTER wrote a long time ago:
DK64_MASTER wrote:
HOLY CRAP, we have RZ Stephen on the list. That guys QUADRA (Tetris with pieces that fall) is the best in the world. Quadra can be found here:
http://quadra.sourceforge.net/
I urge you to download it, and view his crazy replay. I bet he'll be in the top spot soon enough :)
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I'm sorry, but I wasn't really entertained by the run. The room that was cleared at frame ~7000 can be improved by picking up the last bomb closer to the door. Sorry, but I'm gonna vote no on this.
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adelikat wrote:
Then Baxter has never played Holy Diver :P
Really, this game is insanely hard. I have never heard of anyone beating the game unassisted. Holy Diver > Arkanoid, no question.
True that I never did. So I tried, and I reached level 3 pretty fast. No doubt that this game is extremely hard, but at least you can start over at the level each time you use a continue. You also seem to have inlimited continues. Both of these aren't present at Arkanoid (there are no continues at all, which enable to you restart at the level you went game over).
If I'm at level 3, it means I completed 1/3 of the levels. This means that it's like beating 12 levels at Arkanoid. Vatchern said that he was at the end of level 4, which would be like beating 24 levels at Arkanoid. You may argue that the levels 5 and 6 of this game are the hardest, but I still stand by my point that even if this game has never been beaten unassisted... it might be possible, whereas Arkanoid is not even remotely possible.
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Udderdude wrote:
Baxter wrote:
Udderdude wrote:
Never thought I'd see a NES game that looks like it requires a TAS just to complete it.
I assume you never watched Genisto's Arkanoid movie :)
Yes, I've seen the Arkanoid movie. The difference is that he chooses to make the game harder in order to complete it faster. In Holy Diver, there's no choice .. it's always insanely hard!
Ok... then I assume you never played Arkanoid. :P
It's true that picking up 3 balls with the restriction of not losing them would make it harder in real time... but then again, you couldn't even choose if you picked up the 3 ball powerup in real time. But besides the fact that it are 3 balls in the movie, you should have also noticed the immense speed. This combined with very slow movement of the paddle makes completing the game (without codes) pretty much impossible. I have serious doubt anyone has ever completed Arkanoid (US) without cheats (such as the code which lets you start at the level where you went game over, or the level skip code).
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univbee wrote:
I really enjoyed this run, but then I played the hack when it was first published and remember the general difficulty and linearity. I don't think I made it very far past the second quest. Speaking of, does anyone know what name you enter to go straight to the second quest? (the equivalent of ZELDA in the first game)
That would be NAYRU (I used it in the second quest walkthrough).
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slo_bro wrote:
edit: Does anyone know of any videos that are not near the top of the scoreboard that would be a good watch? I'd be interested to see them.
I have been trying to get 2 red tetrisses in a single movie at death mode for a long time now. It's very difficult, especially since it requires 2 red blocks at the start. Since there are 7 different blocks, this happens only 1/49 times. Getting a T or an S block after it also messes it up, so you only get a chance every 70 times you play statistically. Then, if you are 'allowed' to give it a try, most of the time you are dead really fast. I came very close to making it several times, but never got it. :(
Here is the attempt I just did, which comes very close. I think it fits your criteria pretty well (not near the top of the scoreboard, but good to watch).
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JXQ wrote:
Actually I heard about a study done that says wikipedia on average has only one more error than Encyclopedia Brittanica (at a rate of 3 vs. 4 per article). So wiki is a more reputable source than it's often thought to be.
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dave_dfwm wrote:
Who is going to redo Zelda with the glitches? I'm sure it will obsolete the current run by at least a couple of minutes!!
Well, Phil and I will eventually improve the Zelda run... but not anytime soon (not in 2007). The current run is not bad at all, it just doesn't utilize the glitch to its fullest, so there is no need to rush and make a new run of it right away. The second quest run is a lot more outdated... I'll be improving that with Morrison soon.
I don't know how many minutes you meant by "a couple"... but I think it will save less than you might think.
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4matsy wrote:
So, yeah, check level O again. :p
Every dungeon in both quests has a map, but I don't think level C has a compass though...
Well... I didn't say there was no blue suit, I just didn't come across it, and hence I didn't know if it was in the second quest. I did think it was in the second quest somewhere.
I know where the map is in level 9... but I didn't felt like taking the detour. The map is very inaccurate anyway, since all the important rooms are not shown on the map. I don't know where the compass is or if there is one in level C... but there is one in the first and second quest of level 9 at the regular game, so it's surely possible.
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Second quest non glitch walkthrough
Again, no glitch. The run collects all items, except blue suit (don't even know if it's present in the second quest), and doesn't buy potions. It collects all maps and compasses, except the level 9 map and compass. In contrary to the first quest walkthrough the up+A reset is used.
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Viewer wrote:
...well.
So, I'm currently watching the run and starting to reconsider my "no" vote.
For one thing, the full game is slow. It does tend to drag a bit, and just doesn't seem to have the same flow as the original Zelda did. Then again, that may be due to the deliberately unoptimized play here...
Hmm. If my vote weren't already spent, I would vote "yes", with the condition that this movie would also be included, so that fans could see what they were and weren't missing.
Baxter, thank you for your hard work.
Glad to hear that. I was wondering if there was interest in such a walkthrough movie for the second quest (since I enjoyed making the first quest walkthrough movie).
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The impression I'm getting is that most of you disliked it because you didn't know what was skipped exactly. And to know, you want to see a run without the glitch. I would suggest playing the hack... but I can see that only a small amount of people will actually do that. Like I said before, I made a walkthrough of the first quest, so for those who exactly want to know what was skipped:
a walkthrough
This walkthrough:
- only completes the first quest
- doesn't use the glitch
- doesn't use the up+A restart sequence
- tries to complete everything in the order I think the game creator intended a first time player to play
- is not optimized at all
- collects all weapons except the book (and doesn't buy potion)
- collects all maps and compasses, except level 7 map, and level 9 compass
Of course, a slightly faster route can be chosen, and up+A would also save a bit. You should still be able to see how linear such a TAS will be, and after watching this entire movie, please consider again if you truly think this non-glitch run is a better idea for a TAS than this run.
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Wow, I certainly didn't expect it to be received this way. When I made it, and watched it, I only saw the glitches as part of the run. Many people appear to see it as the main thing in the run. I think the glitching doesn't skip the aspects that would normally make someone like a zelda run.
I'm especially surprised, since the glitched ALttP run has such a well reception (30 yes votes, 2 no). Opposed to this run, that run does skip all aspects of normal playing.
I made a walkthrough movie today of the first quest. Where the route of this TAS came so perfectly together, a run without using the glitch would be very linear. Every item you obtain means basically you only have one option to go next that is good. While many probably wouldn't even notice this, as they haven't played the game, I think the lack of a cool, perhaps unordinary or inventive route is killing an aspect of a TAS. A TAS is meant to show something that can't be done normally, which certainly includes picking a route that would never be picked by a normal player or speedrunner. Every dungeon has an equal amount of keys available as it has key doors, and nearly all of them are needed, so there is little planning involved here too. I'm not saying it's a bad thing for the game, or gameplay... but it's a bad thing for a TAS. I'm certain that a run without using the glitch will be less entertaining... and I'm ever more certain a run without using the glitch will never be made (let alone the second quest).
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Jiruru wrote:
Well, when the ball hits the fairway and is no longer bouncing but only rolling, you can hold down Z (I believe it's Z) and the game will "fast-forward" to where the ball will eventually stop.
This is not true for speedgolf, since you would aim for the lowest amount of time, and the timer also speeds up when you hold Z.
I'm not really sure if the different animations of the shot take different amounts of time... but if they do, it might be faster to watch the same, perhaps boring, animation over and over again. I personally like it when you get an overhead view of the ball, and see the real path that it travels (rather than for instance seeing just the ball in the sky).
Manipulating this might also take time, which can't be justified. When I think about this, it might be best if the run of this game used a cheat to get metal mario, and then just played tournament, aiming for the lowest amount of shots, and not time. This way, cool stiff like flag shot, or a ball bouncing a lot before it enters the hole might be showed off also.
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KDR_11k wrote:
It doesn't seem that good of an idea to me to accept a hack that can be glitched heavily when the original game can't, heavily glitching a commercial game is one thing but with hacks it could be just shoddy design or even intentional, we wouldn't know.
The designer didn't know about the glitch, and the hack is really well designed. The glitch isn't even half as useful as it might seem in this TAS. That's why nothing significant can be skipped in either the first or the second quest of the original game. It is a total coincidence that it all worked out so well for this game, and I think that routs like this were possible is a novelty itself.
Even if you don't like the route or the glitching, I think the run has a lot to offer. There are plenty of battles, and even some that are really different from what the original game could show.
I also wouldn't mind seeing a glitchless run of this game, but I think that's completely irrelevant to whether this movie is good or not. It's not that this run would prevent a possibility of someone making a glitchless run of this game.
Xkeeper wrote:
I can't help but feel that Gamemakr24 would be simultaneously suprised, but disappointed in this TAS.
I'm actually very interested what Gamemakr24 thinks about this TAS.
