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Xkeeper wrote:
Baxter wrote:
Putting all that aside though... a line clear takes really long... and the 25 lines should be completed with 9 line clears (8 tetrisses + a single line, or a variation on that). You had 13 line clears, which is really unacceptable. I don't know if the input is really optimized or not, but even completely unoptimized TASing, with more planning could get a time that's faster than this.
The range of places you can move pieces is much smaller than you seem to realize. Getting all tetrises is likely impossible, or at the very least would require so much luck manipulation it would be faster to just not bother.
Oops... I obviously meant 6 tetrisses and a single line clear... which means 7 line clears in total is possible... this only makes the 13 lines clears worse. But 6 tetrisses aren't really needed... 3x 3lines and 4x a tetris is obviously also good. If you want, it's easy to incorporate the top line in a 3 line at the start, giving you more space IF it would be needed. Anyway... I will prove that it's possible to do it in 7 line clears if this movie gets published.
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FractalFusion wrote:
Seeing that this run exists and the pieces move faster, I don't think we need a run for this one.
Yeah, I agree... this movie has the exact same goals basically... I also don't think we need a movie with these goals.
Putting all that aside though... a line clear takes really long... and the 25 lines should be completed with 7 line clears (6 tetrisses + a single line, or a variation on that). You had 13 line clears, which is really unacceptable. I don't know if the input is really optimized or not, but even completely unoptimized TASing, with more planning could get a time that's faster than this.
thanks,
i saw the two "walkthrough" (and their lag) then saw the run.
the hack is really good and the Tas looks optimised but for me the warp glitch doesn't serve justice to the run / hack.
sure totaly break a game is always cool but in this case you skip like 90% of the game, where is the interest of using a hack since you almost see nothing of its content ?
i'm voting meh because the run was good but the use of a hack (in this case) isn't justified.
if you do a glitchless run i'll be really happy to see it ( especialy the second quest )
This 18 minute TAS already was a lot of work... a version without the glitch of both quests would easily be over an hour, and an incredible amount of work... in the end, it would be uncertain if it would get published. This alone makes it very unprobable that there will ever be such a run.
There are also spots in such a run that would be really boring. I remember a spot in the walkthrough where I have to kill the dragon with the multiple heads flying around at least three times in a row... I think such a run would have its dull moments also. I think it's good that this run isn't so overly long.
I think the use of this hack is justified, since this TAS provides something really different than the published LoZ TASes, whereas the two other proposed additional Zelda runs for the site are a 100% run, and a swordless run, which are both nearly identical to the published TASes.
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I'm pretty sure you started shooting the spiderboss at level 3 before it could be damaged. This means that there was no charged fire shot as a first hit, which probably cost a few frames.
I agree with Rick that it could particularly at the times where you have to wait, more interesting things should have been done.
I'm also not really sure what the single player TAS could possibly have to offer that isn't present, or can't be done in a more entertaining way than the 2-player version. If the single player TAS would be faster than the 2-player TAS, it might be a different story...
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Hmm, why did this end up at the gruefood so fast? Did people even compare it to the two published runs? This run is significantly more entertaining than either of them, as it shows off a lot more different characters, and the 2-player matches were a lot more entertaining than the single player matches also. There might be games that are a lot better suited for creating an entertaining TAS than this game... but I don't see any reason why this TAS shouldn't obsolete both published SF2 TASes...
If you glitch to the left at a room at the far left side of the world map, for instance room 17, you will end up in room 16. If you glitch to the right at room 16, you will end up at room 17... So note that Link moves moves one room up or down when glitching to the other side of the map.
* The black areas at the bottom right of the map are tiles that will place Link somewhere near the center of the room again when being stepped on. This is indicated by a dotted line also.
* The levels in the second quest spell OUTLANDSC, so Level O is Level 1, Level U is Level 2... Level C is level 9.
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The top 8 topics at this forum section are all street figher... three of them are Street Fighter Alpha 3, and two of those are for the survival mode of this game.... is this really needed?
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mega_man_3 wrote:
Aglar wrote:
Baxter wrote:
Wasn't there a strategy to use rushcoil earlier in the first room, shooting the enemies sooner, and avoiding a lot of lag?
Yeah, I used that in my run to save magnets for the boss. I think it wouldn't be as effective in his run considering his different strategies in that room.
I had to save up on Rush Coils fo rthe boss fight against Hard Man because when I run out of Rush Coil, Mega Man won't be able to shoot any bullets.
Ah, yes... I guess that's true. Anyway, it's cool that you are trying a different route.
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Wasn't there a strategy to use rushcoil earlier in the first room, shooting the enemies sooner, and avoiding a lot of lag?
Also, I've never noticed before the Mega Man at the level select screen actually looks in a bad shape if you return from a tough battle.
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Not really done yet with catch mode (in fact, not even 1/4th is done)... it's a bit frustrating to TAS sometimes. Anyway, here is what catch mode looks like TASed:
AVI
Let me know what you think (note that 40 of these 4x4 boxes need to be cleared, so this mode will last at least 2 minutes)
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There are 2 movies published now, and I don't think there should be 16, for each figher. Each of the movies would show only a little new, nonrepetitive material. Same goes for this movie... I don't think it's bad for a T. Hawk, I just think a single character movie is a bad idea in general, I thought it was quite boring after the first 2 matches.
I'm in favor of a single movie that shows of all characters, which obsoletes both of the published movies. (Maybe this could be done by beating a computer player, next match pressing start with the second player, which picks a different character, then a two player match where P2 wins, then beat the next computer player, next match player on presses starts, and selects a different character, beats P2 and then a computer player and so on (if something like this isn't possible, then I think a couple of vs matches would also do)).
So even though you didn't do a bad job (as far as I can tell), I don't think the goals of the movie can create an entertaining TAS, so voting no.
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Very nice... the glitch was even more useful than I expected. Definate yes vote.
I think the game has more to offer, and I would still like to see a vs mode movie... but I doubt a Dr. Mario movie could be more popular than this 1p version... so maybe it's better this way. This game was on list of TASes I wanted to eventually make, as the game is certainly publishable, as you showed... but I'm actually quite glad I won't have to TAS this game anymore :P. Good job.
Solon wrote:
I would say to publish it as a concept demo since you only play one level
I would say no. This is just starting at the hardest difficulty, and completes it as fast as possible.
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Kayeto wrote:
I was wondering if you would be willing to elaborate on the information posted under the heading "Enemy Dropping Patterns".
The number in $052A. $052A increases by one every time an enemy is killed.
This is explained perfectly.
The enemies either drop or do not drop an item based solely on what frame they are killed.
This I would like more information about. How do I know what frames make an item drop and what don't?
I don't know the answer to this. What item an enemy drops is not random, as explained, but if they will drop this item or will drop nothing does seem random. At least, I couldn't find any pattern or anything. Roughly half of the time, you will get the item, and the other half you won't. In a speedrun this is quite problematic, as you would need to get lucky. In a TAS, you can just kill it at frame X, and see if you get the item drop. If you don't get it, try again at frame X+1 and so on. So it's just trial and error.
Kayeto wrote:
The type of baddie (they are lumped into 4 categories drop)
The chart explaining this is excellent.
0050 will drop to 0 again if Link is hit. Killing a number of enemies (for instance 10) without getting hit will cause $0050 to flip to 0
This 0050 variable I am also unsure about. Killing 10 enemies flawlessly and getting hit put 0050 in the same position, so is the game in essence trying to "help out" players each time they get hit by granting an opportunity for better drops?
Yeah, getting hit resets 0050. If you kill enough enemies without getting hit, 0050 will reset itself and you will get a 'good' item (which is either a bomb, a fairy or a 5-rupee if I'm not mistaken). 0050 doesn't always reset at the same number though. Bosses, although they can be placed in the groups I mentioned, tend to max out 0050 and give a 'good' item that way.
So it can indeed be seen as helping a player out that did a good job at killing a couple of enemies without getting hit... remember:
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I like it. It would be great if you were to make a submittable movie abusing this glitch :)
(Although I know, that would be a little harder, having to deal with a fixed line of pills :S)
Okay then, I submit everything else (aside from cancelled ones).
I don't know if this officially nominated all the runs listed there, but I'll post this just in case.
I was actually considering redoing the Zelda Outlands (hack) TAS. Not because of improvements that should be implemented, but because, if I might manage to scrape a few frames off, it could have another shot at the workbench. This thread is quite an outcome in that way... so I'll suggest this one (even though it's one of my own).
Since the glitch was new then, I think people mainly noticed the glitching, while this TAS shows a lot of aspects of Zelda that aren't seen in the published TASes (long sword battle, use of boomerang, arrow, swordless questing, etc.), and I disagree with the statement that the hack wouldn't be 'well-made'.
The votes (even though they weren't that bad) might also give a slightly false picture. One of the no-voters stated he wanted to change his vote to yes. The meh vote was stated to be a 'positive meh vote' (whatever that might be :P). Then there was a no vote from someone who stated he generally disliked Zelda runs (which has a bigger impact, as the game isn't as well known as the others), and someone just disliked hacks in general...
At any rate, I don't think the comments were that negative, and the movie might be received better nowadays.
Hmm, I wonder if I should have chosen an easier nickname :/
At any rate, I've started TASing Catch mode. It's not extremely straightforward, as you can only give input every 2 frames, which means you can only move every 4 frames (move, no unput, wait, no input, move...). This means the maximum speed in the TAS will be the same as when you hold down a certain direction for a long time, and not twice as fast as you might expect. If you speed up the blocks (which is done nearly always) the pieces drop slightly faster than you can move, so you have to position really well, and sometimes stop speeding up the blocks for a frame (not that this is noticable).
In the end though, it looks really different from anything else, and still very speedy, and very entertaining... it will just take some time before I completed it, as 40 4x4 boxes are needed.
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Just completed the last mission time trial, here are all the times:
Here is the movie http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/438175518/Tetris_DS_Baxter.fm2 (Change .fm2 to .dsm after downloading)
I didn't include an avi, since I'm actually hoping someone will verify that the movie doesn't desync for someone other than me.
I could now continue to unlock level 20 at mission marathon... but for more variety, I'll do that later, and unlock level 20 at catch mode first. These are the modes, goals, and the order I plan on doing in the TAS:
- Mission time trial mode, level 1-5
- Catch mode, unlocking level 20 as fast as possible
- Regular marathon mode, unlocking level 20 (should this be done as fast as possible?)
- Push mode, (If it works, first game, get a draw) then beat level 5 as fast as possible
- Mission marathon mode, unlocking level 20 while playing around
- Catch mode, get the maximum score of 99.999.999 as fast as possible
- Regular vs mode, beat level 5 as fast as possible
- Regular line clear mode, get highest possible score as fast as possible
- Mission marathon mode, get maximum possible score while playing around
Edit: Might be good to also mention which modes won't be included.
- Regular mission marathon, getting the maximum score of 99.999.999 (this would take, even a TAS, over an hour)
- Puzzle mission mode, no strategy precision, speed, whatever needed. Nothing interesting or entertaining could be done
- Touch puzzle mode, same as above, everything is preset
Touch tower mode, speed doesn't influence score whatsoever, one can think as long as one likes. It would be about getting good randomness when starting the game, and doing a huge amout of puzzling to get combo's... this can be done regularly just as well. The randomness can't be easily manipulatd in a TAS, and I doubt someone in a TAS could score higher than regular scores. Stylus rerecording is also problematic.
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I know you means "score as high as possible" for regular marathon. This score is 99.999.999, and a back to back triple T spin gives you 48.000, which means you need about 2000 of those. Lets say every two seconds it's possible to make a back to back triple T spin, then it would take 4000 seconds to get the maximum score, which is over an hour. This is too long, and wouldn't be interesting. Sorry, I made a typo before where you quoted me... it should be "over an hour".
Btw, I finished the fouth time trial mission in 13.38
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OmegaWatcher wrote:
In my opinion, getting the best score in regular marathon would be more entertaining, and would fit better the whole "playaround" aspect of this run.
Like I said, this would take over an hour at least, and is not an option. It is nothing really special either, if you consider quite a few people (with a lot of time) have done it in real time.
OmegaWatcher wrote:
About the marathon mission mode: If you're planning to do 2 plays, you could do both: The first one would be "as fast as possible", as it would take a lot of time to fail in a mission, as opposed to the all-level 20 marathon, although I don't know if it's really possible to prepare the screen in level 20.
I was planning to do 2 plays, yeah. First one goofing off, second one being fast AND going for a highscore. It seems though that the second goal isn't possible anymore due to how the game works. It could be done that the first one just aims for speed, and the second one goofs off, while getting the highest score possible... although that would be quite a task... forming patterns, setting the screen up for completing a mission instantly, and then there is the garbage you get from letting missions go by... I don't really know yet. Although if the first playthrough goes for speed, it might be a good idea to do something different first, since there were already 5 time trial mission modes completed just before at that point, which also aimed for speed.
And about preparing the screen at level 20... even if the pieces dropped instantly, like at regular mode at level 20... it would be not much more difficult to prepare the screen. The fact however is, as I posted somewhere above, that the only difference the level makes at mission marathon mode is the time you get for completing a mission. It is not related at all to what missions you get, or how fast blocks are dropping.
[/URL] and the second quest: [URL=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7007/q2overworld.png]
[/URL]
Dacicus also made some very detailed maps of all the levels that are visited in the TAS:
Q1 Level1
Q1 Level 5
Q1 Level 9
Q2 Level 1 or O
Q2 Level 2 or U
Q2 Level 3 or T
Q2 Level 9 or C
(This is how the maps fit together: Levels 1-6, Levels 7-9, Levels D-A-U-N-S-T, Levels O-L-C.)
I made a complete walkthrough of the first quest and a walkthrough of the second quest. In these walkthroughs, nearly all items, heart containers, maps and compasses are collected.
In the actual TAS however, a lot of items are skipped by using the glitch (which is also used in the current Zelda "Second Quest" TAS). The route might seem complicated, but it's actually very simple. I painted the TAS route in Dacicus' overworld maps:
First Quest
* Get 150 rupees (to buy the bow later on)
* Go to Level 1 to collect the sword, then go to Level 5 to collect the silver arrow, then go to the shop to buy the bow (sword, silver arrow and bow are the three things needed to beat Ganon
* Go to level 9 (collecting the triforce pieces in each level is not needed because the barrier in level 9 can be bypassed using the glitch)
Second Quest
* Go to level U to collect meat (meat is needed to get the ladder in level O)
* Go to level O to get boomerang and ladder (boomerang is needed to get to the ladder, the ladder is needed to get the recorder)
* Go to level U to get the recorder (the recorder is needed to get 150 rupees for the bow, and to gain access to level T)
* Get 150 rupees (to buy the bow later on)
* Go to Level T to collect the sword, then go to the shop to buy the bow (these are both needed to defeat Ganon)
* Go to Level C (once again, collecting the triforce pieces in each level is not needed because the barrier in level C can be bypassed using the glitch... the final element for defeating Ganon, the silver arrows are found in Level C)
General notes:
* The starting position is near the bottom left. At every new image, Link starts from this position.
* The blue line shows Link's normal walking route.
* The pink dashed line starts where Link exits a side of the screen using the glitch, and points with an arrow to where Link enters the screen again.
* Screen's are numbered like this: 
Here is the movie http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/438175518/Tetris_DS_Baxter.fm2 (Change .fm2 to .dsm after downloading)
I didn't include an avi, since I'm actually hoping someone will verify that the movie doesn't desync for someone other than me.
I could now continue to unlock level 20 at mission marathon... but for more variety, I'll do that later, and unlock level 20 at catch mode first. These are the modes, goals, and the order I plan on doing in the TAS:
- Mission time trial mode, level 1-5
- Catch mode, unlocking level 20 as fast as possible
- Regular marathon mode, unlocking level 20 (should this be done as fast as possible?)
- Push mode, (If it works, first game, get a draw) then beat level 5 as fast as possible
- Mission marathon mode, unlocking level 20 while playing around
- Catch mode, get the maximum score of 99.999.999 as fast as possible
- Regular vs mode, beat level 5 as fast as possible
- Regular line clear mode, get highest possible score as fast as possible
- Mission marathon mode, get maximum possible score while playing around
Edit: Might be good to also mention which modes won't be included.
- Regular mission marathon, getting the maximum score of 99.999.999 (this would take, even a TAS, over an hour)
- Puzzle mission mode, no strategy precision, speed, whatever needed. Nothing interesting or entertaining could be done
- Touch puzzle mode, same as above, everything is preset
Touch tower mode, speed doesn't influence score whatsoever, one can think as long as one likes. It would be about getting good randomness when starting the game, and doing a huge amout of puzzling to get combo's... this can be done regularly just as well. The randomness can't be easily manipulatd in a TAS, and I doubt someone in a TAS could score higher than regular scores. Stylus rerecording is also problematic.