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mz wrote:
Useless arguments should have stopped 5 days ago if Baxter would have accepted this movie when it already had 45 Yes votes and almost no Meh or No votes
Baxter wrote:
Just because the majority of the opinions are positive on this TAS however doesn't mean that I can't post my personal opinion as a member of the TASvideos community.
Also, there certainly weren't 45 yes votes at the time, and I mentioned that I held off posting on purpose:
Baxter wrote:
I've held off posting my opinion in this thread since I didn't want it to cloud other people's opinions, and I certainly didn't want this to be the first post of the submissions thread.
mz wrote:
instead of saying he could make a movie like this in a couple of days...
Baxter wrote:
let me respond to the claim that I did make then.
1) What I meant by "months ago" is that I completed a mode and posted it here over half a year ago. This is a completed mode just like this submission, and would have been an equally valid, and I think equally appreciated submission as this one.
2) It's obvious what I mean by "in a matter of one or maybe two days of work" and I can't actually prove it without doing it I guess... but I somehow think it would be a waste of time, as I would be making a movie with goals that I myself wouldn't consider the best possible set of goals. There are however three things that might persuade some people that there is some truth to this claim:
* I have TASed this particular game, and have a good knowledge on how it works.
* This submission has about 5000 rerecords, and it is very possible to do 5000 rerecords worth of TASing in a day.
*I have submitted:
- NES Tetris A mode within a day of Primo's submission.
- NES Tetris B mode within a day of Chef Stef's movie being published
- GBC Tetris DX within a day after submitting my NES Tetris A mode TAS
- GB Tetris within a day after Nineko said that his movie was perfect unless someone else proved otherwise
I agree... this doesn't prove that I can make a submission like this in one or two days (and I say again, "like this" doesn't necessarily mean an improvement)... but I would say that there are some indications that might point to the claim not being entirely random.
Also, if you think arguments should have stopped a long time ago, and you say you don't care about the site... why isn't that reflected in your post?
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moozooh wrote:
Making a 9-in-1 Tetris DS submission has more merits for the viewer, while submitting the modes separately has more merits for the TASer… We should probably go with the former but make it possible to accept partially improved movies (where one or several modes are improved, but not all) if it's possible to freely hexedit them in.
Hmm, while I did indeed talk about 9 modes, there are some modes that would have to have some other modes completed before they can be done (aiming for a highscore generally requires starting at level 20, which has to be unlocked before).
So the main modes can be grouped together, which wouldn't mean 9 different TASes... but a few less. Of the 9 modes I mentioned:
(1) Mission time trial mode, level 1-5
(2) Catch mode, unlocking level 20 as fast as possible
(3) Regular marathon mode, unlocking level 20 (this is what this submission does)
(4) Push mode, (If it works, first game, get a draw) then beat level 5 as fast as possible
(5) Mission marathon mode, unlocking level 20 while playing around
(6) Catch mode, get the maximum score of 99.999.999 as fast as possible
(7) Regular vs mode, beat level 5 as fast as possible
(8) Regular line clear mode, get highest possible score as fast as possible
(9) Mission marathon mode, get maximum possible score (without being allowed to fail a mission)
(1) + (5) + (9) would make a good Mission mode TAS
(2) + (6) would make a good Catch mode TAS
(3) + (8) would make a good Standard mode TAS
(4) + (7) don't really have a good place here... but maybe they could be combined with a (10) which does Touch mode
This would mean 4 TASes to show everything in the game... As Moozooh said, this would be the best option for the TASers, as they don't have to do all modes when wanting to attempt a TAS of the game... and Touchmode might also be TASed. I have however gotten several signals that some people think there are already too many Tetris TASes published, and this would add another 4. This idea would have to be given an "ok" from the people who decide about categories first though.
Even with these cutdown TASes though, this submission would still complete too little, only doing the unlocking (3) and not using the unlocked level 20 to set a highscore (8).
Setting this highscore would also have some debate though, since endless mode can't be done... as maxing out the score would take hours. Then there is an option to set the highscore at 200 lines mode (which that youtube TAS did) or at line clear mode (where you have to clear 25 lines, and can start at a blocks on the screen already). I would personally go for line clear mode, but an opinion to do it on 200 line mode would be equally valid (I would do it on 25 line mode to avoid some repetativeness... 9 triple T-spins instead of ~66 Triple T-spins.)
Both would have some problem though, highscore runs without maxing out a score might be a little problematic... what if someone is way faster, but get a slightly lower score, or gets a slighty higher score, but is way slower?
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Whoah, people... don't respond to whatever you might want me to have said... try reading a bit more carefully next time.
nico wrote:
What we're getting at now is partially why I don't even bother making TASes for this site anymore. The general attitude seems to be something like "you can save one frame, DENIED"
Nowhere have I said that this movie should be rejected because the quality of TASing wasn't good enough, or it is/might be possible to save frames.
nico wrote:
or "a few people really enjoy this, but because a select few don't deem it the grand-supreme-apex-of-entertainment, we will fail you until you spend 1000 more hours working on this."
No judge has made a decision on this TAS yet. If I were to judge this movie (which I won't do), I would take into account all the opinions in this thread. Just because the majority of the opinions are positive on this TAS however doesn't mean that I can't post my personal opinion as a member of the TASvideos community (which is not the same as judging a submission as a judge).
Nico wrote:
I think for at least this particular case, something is a whole lot better than nothing.
This might be true, but look at it from my perspective. I was/am planning on doing about 9 modes like this. With the argument you just stated, I could have submitted a wip of the first mode, and state in all honestly: "This is a wip which completes this mode. I will add other modes later, so stay tuned for my next submissions.". People would say "Dude... just make your complete movie before submitting it.". If I were to call it a complete movie and state in all honesty: "This is a TAS of this mode. I will make 8 more seperate submissions of other modes.". Then people would say "Dude, if you have all this planned, just include it in one movie.".
Nico wrote:
So what can happen is the TASer takes a big hit to his ego and may give up, and others mayn't even try because they fear likewise denial.
Lex wrote:
Exactly. Nico hit the nail on the head here. I'm not sure if has, but it feels like it's gotten to the point where a lot of TASers who make precise, entertaining, and skillful runs aren't even submitting here.
I would point out again like I stated above that everyone is entitled to post his opinion in the thread, and that no judgement has been made yet. I do have something to say about making a negative post regarding a submission, and its goal (after all, it might only discourage a TASer and others do like the TAS, so why spoil their fun?).
Let me begin by saying that a post explaining a no-vote is better than no explanation at all. Then, there are several factors that I consider when making a negative post on a submission. If I don't care/don't know a game, mainly rpg-games, which take long and I don't enjoy, I won't vote or comment on it, as like you mentioned... why spoil the fun of people who do know the game and love the TAS. If I however do know and like the game, and I have something in particular that bothers me with the TAS, what is wrong with pointing that out? I always mention what I think would be a good idea to change (like I did at this submission), and I try to do this without something that the TASer might take personal (as I said my post in this submission thread: "this post is in no way meant to be against Fractal_Fusion"). I also take the amount of work that went into a TAS into consideration, and I am less likely to be critical if a LOT of work went into it (5000 rerecords is a different story than 100.000 rerecords).
Xkeeper wrote:
Nico wrote:
words
Don't bother. The site's been headed on this path for the last several years and it isn't going to change.
I don't really know what direction you are talking about, but I think I've posted a response to all the points that Nico made, so I probably also covered whatever path you are talking about. Maybe you can elaborate...
Xkeeper wrote:
Baxter wrote:
No offense at all meant to Fractal_Fusion... but this 200 line submission I could have made months ago, in a matter of one or maybe two days of work.
Baxter wrote:
With this submission, I meant a 200 line submission, but I haven't said anything about being able to beat this run, or that there were particular mistakes in this run... so I have no claim to defend or proof here.
I can make this submission with my hands tied behind my back while blindfolded, and that means this submission should be rejected even though I pulled this figure out of my ass with no justification.
Also I haven't actually claimed anything so I don't have to prove anything and this submission should still be rejected.
I thought my point was quite clear, but I might have formulated it wrong. Lex wrote "If Baxter thinks he can do better on these goals with a day's work, I challenge him to beat this run!. What I meant to say is that I never claimed anything of that sort, since I only claimed I could make a 200 line submission like this in a day or two months ago, and I had not claimed that I can improve it in a day or two.
But you are right in a way... I did make a claim (just not the one Lex read into it), and let me respond to the claim that I did make then.
1) What I meant by "months ago" is that I completed a mode and posted it here over half a year ago. This is a completed mode just like this submission, and would have been an equally valid, and I think equally appreciated submission as this one.
2) It's obvious what I mean by "in a matter of one or maybe two days of work" and I can't actually prove it without doing it I guess... but I somehow think it would be a waste of time, as I would be making a movie with goals that I myself wouldn't consider the best possible set of goals. There are however three things that might persuade some people that there is some truth to this claim:
* I have TASed this particular game, and have a good knowledge on how it works.
* This submission has about 5000 rerecords, and it is very possible to do 5000 rerecords worth of TASing in a day.
*I have submitted:
- NES Tetris A mode within a day of Primo's submission.
- NES Tetris B mode within a day of Chef Stef's movie being published
- GBC Tetris DX within a day after submitting my NES Tetris A mode TAS
- GB Tetris within a day after Nineko said that his movie was perfect unless someone else proved otherwise
I agree... this doesn't prove that I can make a submission like this in one or two days (and I say again, "like this" doesn't necessarily mean an improvement)... but I would say that there are some indications that might point to the claim not being entirely random.
Xkeeper wrote:
Baxter wrote:
I do recognize why there is such a positive response... the gameplay is really fast, and it looks entertaining. This is however mostly due to how the game is, and not particularly due to the goals or effort put into the TAS. Voting no.
Oh, shut the hell up. If the goals of this TAS had nothing to do with the goals of this TAS then random videos of people playing Tetris DS would be just as popular. It's the fact that aims to beat this game as fast as possible that is the reason for entertainment.
Jesus fucking Christ I hate the tasvideos community sometimes
"If the goals of this TAS had nothing to do with the goals of this TAS"... I am totally clueless what you mean by this, or how you could deduce anything like this from what I said. I only said that this submission is very popular because the game is very suitable for TASing, and not because the most awesome goals were picked (and by goals, I don't just mean "completes as fast as possible", but "completes this particular mode as fast as possible"... and I don't think the best goals for this submission were picked, because a whole lot of awesomeness that the game has to offer isn't displayed... this could mean that this particular goal might be one of the ones included in such a full TAS).
To your claim that "random videos of people playing Tetris DS would be just as popular"... Well, maybe not completely random... but I would think that the TASes Fractal_Fusion pointed out in his submission got an equally enthusiastic response at youtube as this movie, and one should take into consideration that this was the first submission of this game at TASvideos. So while completely random playing obviously wouldn't be as popular, I do think that youtube movies with a particular level of play, be it with different goals or whatever, would indeed be just as popular, especially if they were the first submission of this game here.
The list Xkeeper posts in his next post is completely rediculous in a multitude of ways. First of all, the submission hasn't been rejected or accepted. Then he lists 10 reasons for rejection and says all of the above, while for this particular submission (we are still talking about that right?) none of the above applies. The only objection I stated were the goals, and the objection wasn't "non-standard goals".
Gohanks wrote:
As an observer, a lurker for a few years now, I think Xkeeper and Lex are right. Xkeeper's list of things seems accurate enough. Oh, or my all time "favorite" reason - "this game wasn't a good choice to TAS"! What. Well, gee, I bet the person who spent however many hours of their life on making it, no matter how technically sound that movie may be, will appreciate having it not seen by anyone for the worst reason possible. It really begs for a section of non-encoded movies or something for these supposedly poor choices... but perhaps I'm misinterpreting the argument in this topic. Ah well. I've made my statement...
Please, read everything I posted above, and read it carefully. Both of the things you claim here are completely the opposite from what I said. I think the game is totally great choice for a TAS, and it's so great that I think this particular submission doesn't do justice to the full potential of the game. Second, you talk about the technical soundness of the movie maybe not being ok, but that not mattering... while I haven't said anything about the movie not being technically sound. I did wonder about that comparison video posted... but my inquery about that was rather objective I'd say.
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Lex wrote:
If Baxter thinks he can do better on these goals with a day's work, I challenge him to beat this run!
You sound like Nineko
Either way, I picked my words carefully when I wrote:
Baxter wrote:
this 200 line submission I could have made months ago, in a matter of one or maybe two days of work
With this submission, I meant a 200 line submission, but I haven't said anything about being able to beat this run, or that there were particular mistakes in this run... so I have no claim to defend or proof here.
Does this mean that I think this run can't be improved, or that I can't improve it? Not at all, it is a Tetris game after all, where there are virtually a limitless amount of options to make 50 tetrisses. It probably wouldn't be a large difference, I don't see any obvious mistakes (which is basically your point in your "would-be"-double post)... but because it's Tetris, this TAS if by definition not perfect (as there are too many different possibilities... but these possibilities do make this run improvable).
Lex wrote:
and what better way to compete than this mode?
Competing for entertainment with other modes would be a better way probably than competing for frames in this mode.
MUGG wrote:
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Well... the particular goal of this WIP was to complete the mode as fast as possible (completing all levels allows you to pick a level at the start of the game, and you need to start from level 20 if you want to do a highscore TAS, so this also unlocks level 20).
Either way, you get to the next level by blasting two times... which happens when get a 4x4 box. Normally, you get a certain amount of time to make the box bigger, but I explode it manually to move on. So my goals is to make 40 4x4 boxes as fast as possible.
If I had placed the green block you mentioned at the start of your post at that spot it wouldn't have contributed at all to the 4x4 box that is gonna be formed with the horizontal I piece, and only block of the green block would remain after the explosion. Placing it here makes it possible to use that full green block for the next 4x4 block. I also didn't lose time there to place it where I did.
The respawning block doesn't take the place of another block. If you just speed up the game, not catching any blocks, you will get a VERY filled playing field (I think this can even be done on a regular DS). You do die pretty fast though obviously... but you can still see there being LOTS of blocks (relative to how much there would be normally).
And no, I don't know how to write scripts/macros :S
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Lex wrote:
Hmm, yeah, I remember this mode being ridiculously unfun on my actual DS due to the split screens both being used as a continuous screen. It was pretty hard to line things up at high speeds.
This gameplay reminds me of Asteroids (or multi-ball Arkanoid) in a way, in that you have to prioritize your actions very well to get a high score. It seems like something a bot could do best, since humans prioritize actions incorrectly a lot of the time.
It looks like you move your "character" down unnecessarily at some points, giving you less time to catch more blocks, and you even ended up missing one because of it. I might be wrong.
OH, I just tried this mode on the real DS again, and I noticed the game ran a LOT faster (even on level 1) than in this WIP. Is the emulation extra slow or something?
I don't think I go down unnecessarily... but if you can point out a specific spot, I'll try to defend it (or conclude that you are right of course ;)
Missing a block might look imperfect... but it's not as bad as you think. A black that is missed ends up at the top of the screen... so you don't lose that block actually. If I were to release the R button, all stones would drop slower, and since I do get that block eventually, I think letting it destroy itself in order to show up at the top is the best option. (I do think that pieces that are destroyed by rotating into them are destroyed permanently.)
And you are indeed very right about this movie running too slow. There is lag frame every second frame... so the movie should run about twice as fast. This was due to it being made on an old version of the emulator, but the problem has been fixed now! I will have to try if the input file still works on the new version of the emulator (the beginning, where I do the mission time trials mostly) and if they do, then decide if I want to hexedit in this wip of catchmode or do it all over again (hexediting would be a long process also probably, since I would need to delete lines of input every 2 frames for several thousand frames).
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Lex wrote:
Hmm. The video is a 0-byte file. I realize it may be out of date. Can you please re-upload it somewhere?
Maybe my browser took a dump.
No, it's gone. You want to see particularly that catchmode wip, right?
Edit: Assuming that you do mean the wip in the post just above yours, here it is: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QBTZ0TV5
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nico wrote:
If starting on the first level isn't important, then you can save time by starting on the last level and take advantage of floorkicks in a 20G environment. I've confirmed on my own research that you can reduce inputs per tetromino this way in SRS.
...
Lastly, time may be saved by tetrising on column 6 instead of column 10. This is because you no longer need to make 4 movements to get the vertical i-tetromino all the way to the wall. Playing the middle column in 20G is really, really difficult in real life, but may be doable in a TAS.
When starting the game for the first time, you can only pick the first 5 levels. Every level that is reached is unlocked. This is why the guy aiming for highscore in the youtube movie first beat this mode as fast as possible (like this TAS) in order to unlock level 20, in order to get a good highscore. So this suggestion can't be applied.
I don't think that that last suggestion is necessarily true... since you still need to get other blocks to that 10th row.
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I've held off posting my opinion in this thread since I didn't want it to cloud other people's opinions, and I certainly didn't want this to be the first post of the submissions thread. As Fractal_Fusion mentions in the thread, we had some discussion on the goals, and this post is in no way meant to be against Fractal_Fusion (I really hope he doesn't dislike me for making this post)... I'm just quite critical of this TAS.
Let me start off with the claims that it's more awesome or even that it should obsolete the published TASes:
FODA wrote:
Baxter wrote:
klmz wrote:
Yes vote for obsoleting all the published Tetrises!
That's like a New Super Mario Bros DS TAS obsoleting all published Mario TASes :/
No because it isn't the same game. It would be like that GBA super mario 3 remake obsoleting smb3 on the nes and snes.
As moozooh mentioned, this isn't remotely the same game either. There are different goals, physics, graphics and music. But let me say why in particularly I think it's not more awesome than any of the three published TASes it resembles the most.
Tetris A mode, 999999 points: needs to take advantage of making a high platform, is constantly on the verge of dying, has a lot of block manipulation. One of the coolest facts that's not really noticed generally though I think is that making all tetrisses only gives you like 999500 points (could be 100 more of less). You need to pressing down a frame when dropping a piece gives you 1 point when it locks, but because you are constantly so high and there is no moving space, I just managed to get the exact amount of points with the final piece dropping. The TAS doesn't get more than 999999 points, it gets exactly 999999 points.
Tetris B mode, all clear 25 lines: Very awesome and inventive objective to get a bravo (all clear) when finishing B mode on height 5. A lot of manipulation had to go in getting a good initial setup, and piece manipulation, and a whole lot of planning.
Tetris DX 40 lines mode at height 5: This is arguably by far the least impressive of these three TASes... but in a TASing perspective, I think it's still a little more impressive than this particular submission. Mostly because the TAS shows the potential of the game better.
===============================================
Fractal_Fusion chose this mode because it was the most because it's the most objective. If by objective is meant comparable, then it's indeed amongst the objective goals but there are many others that are equally well open for TAS competition. Amongst those though, I think this is probably the most boring mode.
It's the standard, complete 200 lines mode, and while it does this quite quickly, there is nothing really to it that makes it special. It are 50 Tetrisses without ever having to get in a tight spot, since you don't have to build high. While the pieces can't be manipulated like in the other games, the amount of freedom with the hold function I think eliminates nearly all planning, if you just build in a steady way, without making big gaps. Even with this relatively boring goal I think the movie could have been made more interesting, which in my opinion is shown by the youtube movie linked in the submission text. It has lots and lots of bravos (all clears), which requires more effort (and my philosophy is "effort = entertainment"). The second part of this particular youtube movie that aims for highscore (starting at level 20... basically the only reason why the first 200 lines are played) also requires a lot of planning to make all the T-spin triples (I personally would have made a highscore attempt at the 25 lines mode at height 5... as 200 lines mode can be set to endless, making a higher score easy on the regular handheld). At any rate, I think the youtube movie is far superior to this submission (even if the first run through 200 lines might be a tiny bit slower).
Does this mean that I would be in favor of publishing that youtube movie (if it were submitted)? Well, not really. This game truly has a lot to offer. This is what I wrote in the Tetris DS thread that I think would be great things to all include in a Tetris DS TAS:
Baxter wrote:
These are the modes, goals, and the order I plan on doing in the TAS:
- Mission time trial mode, level 1-5
- Catch mode, unlocking level 20 as fast as possible
- Regular marathon mode, unlocking level 20 (should this be done as fast as possible?)
- Push mode, (If it works, first game, get a draw) then beat level 5 as fast as possible
- Mission marathon mode, unlocking level 20 while playing around
- Catch mode, get the maximum score of 99.999.999 as fast as possible
- Regular vs mode, beat level 5 as fast as possible
- Regular line clear mode, get highest possible score as fast as possible
- Mission marathon mode, get maximum possible score (as fast as possible)
Making a TAS like this takes quite a bit of time, which amongst emulator differences that don't support my current WIP and other projects didn't make me work on this for quite some time now. No offense at all meant to Fractal_Fusion... but this 200 line submission I could have made months ago, in a matter of one or maybe two days of work.
I don't think we need a published TAS for each of these modes, I am in favor of a single Tetris DS TAS which includes them all... including mostly modes and goals that are quite different than anything else published on the site.
I do recognize why there is such a positive response... the gameplay is really fast, and it looks entertaining. This is however mostly due to how the game is, and not particularly due to the goals or effort put into the TAS. Voting no.
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I pretty much never buy games on impuls. Most of the time I already know if I want to get a game at the moment it's announced. Most of these games are Mario, Zelda or Metroid games. I also liked Okami... and I'll get muramasa.
For me, a game needs to be made entirely for its single-player mode, and not have some halfassed multiplayer mode with it. This is what completely killed Resident Evil 5 for instance. Unfortunately, it seems like all game developers feel an urge to add something like this... and every game seems like it HAS to be online also.
While it's probably true that most on the wii games that come out are crap, there have been a few (which I mentioned above) that I liked a lot, which is enough for me. I don't need to have a new game every once in a while. If nothing particularly interests me, I won't buy a game for a whole year, and if two games come out that I like in a week, I'll buy both. They announced mario galaxy 2, and another metroid game for next year, so I'll have something to look forward to :).
(And no, it doesn't particularly bother me that they are sticking to the same old characters. The games are different enough, and at least with this generation of those games, they don't feel rushed. (I didn't particularly like Mario Sunshine and Zelda Windwaker for GC.))
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As I've said quite a few times I think in this thread, I would certainly be interested to see a TAS of this movie. If you can unlock all characters by using a code, I say go for it. It would certainly be nice to see the best play with the best character.
It's hard to say what the best goals for such a movie would be. Speed golf might be nice, as it's easy to compare and compete with one another. Ring shot might also be nice, I remember having quite a hard time to complete some the the challenges there. This might also allow some crazy shots. I don't think minigolf would be really interesting. I think the movie that miles posted on youtube where all minigold holes are completed in one shot shows all there is to show. Nothing particularly impressive that a TAS can do with this mode I think.
I was also wondering if it's possible to manipulate or change the camera view of the shot. I know I like the shot where the ball it tracked from behind best, as it shows best what's going on. If possible it would be nice to get that camera angle as often as possible.
Either way, good luck! I hope you can produce something submittable :)
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Quoting myself from the previous page:
Baxter wrote:
Did you know there is already a 2 player clu clu land submission? This movie was rejected though, so if you really want to do this, you need to think twice, and probably make sure it's a significant improvement. Either way, I like the game :)
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andrewg wrote:
Voted meh. it was a pretty decent run. I enjoyed different aspects of the game itself and the glitching kept me pretty entertained. However, it was just a bit too long and I just was hoping there would be more of those random other types of minigames (like the guitaring one), that was pretty funny.
I guess I did enjoy it quite a bit despite the length, maybe I should have voted yes. I'm on the line here really though.
Same here.
The glitching reminded me a bit of my Tmnt2 movie :)
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Dooty wrote:
Baxter wrote:
いい
Has to be the shortest ending text in video game history...
I don't know what it means, but here the end text is like this りり...
Seeing the typos they made in the (U) version, I just assumed they made a typo here as well, and meant いい... it's the only thing I can think off that makes sense ;)
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いい
Has to be the shortest ending text in video game history... It doesn't top the ending text they had in the (U) version though... which I won't spoil... Be sure to watch AVGN's movie of this game if you haven't already http://www.gametrailers.com/video/angry-video-screwattack/17324
I don't know if an AVGN movie should influence what I vote... but after watching it... one is interested how it looks when it's completed as fast as possible. It wasn't extremely entertaining... but it's very short, and I certainly wanted to see it. Plus it looks pretty optimized, voting yes.
[/URL] At least it's unlimited :/
