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Alyosha
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After having MESHUGGAH's WIP in my hands for the entire year I finally have gotten around to starting work on it. MESHUGGAH played levels 1 and 2 and I have no plan to touch them. I have now done level 3 and saved about 50 frames with a different route involving manipulating a yellow pellet from the shooter things. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/27418817840952253 It took me a while to figure this game out but now I think I have a decent grasp of what to do, so I hope to make decent progress.
Alyosha
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wow that is some really amazing stuff! keep it up Weatherton.
Alyosha
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Ok so I got a bit better at controlling expresso through 4-4 and things are pretty close right now, diddy and expresso are currently only 40 frames apart, with diddy holding the slight lead. Still could go either way. One thing slowing down the expresso route is the setup. The vulture shoots the coconut to hit the dk barrel quite a bit later in the current run then in the nico video example. I'm not sure if this can be controlled or if its just emulation differences.
Alyosha
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Hi xy2_ , out of curiosity, why does that extra lag frame de-sync the movie so badly? Is it RNG , or is it just throwing off the rest of the inputs since there is so much lag in the game?
Alyosha
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@someog: while I'm not an FBA expert I can at least offer some info to get you a head start: 1. No, but it's not too hard to make something of the sort in LUA where you can use a csv or similar file to edit inputs in excel, here is an example:
for next_input in io.lines("input_file.csv") do

   Input_to_game=joypad.get()

   if string.sub(next_input,1,1)=="1" then 
      Input_to_game["P1 Up"]=true
         else 
      Input_to_game["P1 Up"]=false 
   end
   .
   .
   . repeat for other inputs
   .
   .
   
   joypad.set(Input_to_game)

   emu.frameadvance()

end
The inputs are P1 Up, P1 Down, P1 Left, P1 Right, P1 Fire 1, P1 Fire 2, P1 Fire 3, Coin 1, Start 1 (for more then 1 player just replace the '1' with '2' etc.) In my attempts at TASing FBA I found this approach pretty useful. You'll just need to convert the csv to an actual input file in the end, but since you are a programmer that should be easy. Here is the movie file format in case you need it: http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources/Fbarr/FBM.html 6. yes LUA is implemented and useful in FBA, here is a useful site: https://code.google.com/p/fbarr/w/list Hope this helps.
Alyosha
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small update as I try to work on 4-4 a little more in depth. I saved another 100 frames on the diddy only route, so its now pretty comfortably ahead of the expresso route. I'll still be doing both routes a few more times to make sure I arrive at the final correct answer. I don't see either route getting significantly faster at the moment, but I still have a few more ideas to try so who knows, the research continues.
Alyosha
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^ added boss technique discussion. Thanks as always for the input mklip2001.
Alyosha
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I recently found this game while browsing videos. it looked fun but in need of improvement so i thought i'd give it a try. So far I am ~800 frames ahead and up to the last level. But then i realized there is a cancelled submission (i guess due to trouble with this code red person.) I dont think i will match that submissions time with my current run , even though i'm pretty far ahead of the last wip on this thread too, so i trhink i am missing something. Is there a way to see what was in the submission text that DarkKobold edited out so i can glean some information about this lost TAS? nevermind saw the version history button : ) I hope to finish this fairly soon.
Alyosha
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Awesome! Have you thought about doing the 'second quest' as well Arc? Would be nice to have a run with the true ending.
Alyosha
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I don't mean that sound causes lag. I mean to say that when there is a lag frame, the game compensates by only doing sound operations during that frame. In fact, if the previous frame was still working on sound (001B=81) at the time the lag frame occurs, the game will do basically nothing at all during that frame. You are right though sound seems to be the least well managed element in this game. There are some fairly obvious audio glitches but unfortunately they don't seem to impact much else. EDIT: With a bit more testing I have found that lag is a bit more common then I previously thought. Still testing though.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/27193714994568875 Here it is. The platform is around 05BA I believe, so you can see which jump is triggering it. You can start the jump earlier or later to slightly adjust the timing of the spawn. Not sure what other factors there are to consider but so far this is the best I could get. Any thoughts on how much better an optimal spawn would be?
Alyosha
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Hi Arc, I tried testing this a bit and right now I am on the platform on the left side of the pit and it has just turned around at frame 23030 22870. How does this compare to your run so far? As far as I can tell, the physical spawn location of the platform is always the same , as well as its direction of travel. Jumping seems to just spawn it at different times (not entirely sure why yet)
Alyosha
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feos wrote:
If you have an idea of what condition you need, there's a common mean to use bot: that's how Rockman DelayStateClear was proven to be possible - FinalFighter foretold it before it actually happened "simply" by breaking into code.
unfortunately I do not know. Assuming the mechanism is functionally the same as delaystageclear the closest bank swap to my current NMI in the lag frame is about 2000 instructions away. Probably reachable but no idea how at the moment. The real problem is that watching the movie of the glitch, I do not see any situations where lag should show up, so I have serious doubts that it is similar to Rockman. I'm only really looking at it for thoroughness and maybe learning something new to get a new lead. The lag frame itself seems to deal almost entirely in sound. The programmers were really careful here, I couldn't find a case they might have missed so far. One possibility that is a bit similar to delaystageclear is manipulating 07ED, which tells the game what bank to use for various operations across frames, but again I have seen no glitches in it yet. (If you cheat it to 0 though you get some neat 'fireworks'.)
Alyosha
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^Oh nice glad you both are doing that one! I've been busy so haven't made it far on double dragon, but I do hope to have it done before year end. wow and my list is already updated! Thanks Samsara : )
Alyosha
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Cool thanks feos, I'll take a look at that myself in a few days when I have more time. As for me my current (and only ) line of research is looking at lag . After a lot of random messing about I finally got a lag frame to generate in normal level 1 play through . I had generated lag before but only by cheating backpack guys to appear every frame . This is the first time I've done it without cheating. So my working theory is that if a new interrupt occurs at just the right time something will go awry. I'm still in the early stages of investigating this , but so far nothing looks suspect . The game uses address 001B as a flag that tells it when a new interrupt happens if it is still working in the previous frame . It then modifies what subroutines it works on for the lag frame. Since backpack guy generation can be a long and variable process each frame, the range within each frame that the next interrupt can occur in during lag is pretty large, maybe enough for something unexpected ? But so far hardware error still seems the most likely candidate.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26944546486367506 I did a test run with expresso. I ended up one second behind by level end. Originally I had tied diddy only run, but it didn't load the exit so I had to play more conservatively. I'm pretty confident the diddy only route will win in the end, because most of the time you gain with expresso you just give up again having to wait for the camera, and the setup time is longer, but its close enough to keep investigating both cases. On the up side, the whole thing only took a couple of hours to do, not bad considering the level kept the TAS from even being completed a few years ago, thanks BizHawk! EDIT: just to compare, my run takes a bit over 81 seconds, the nico TAS originally posted a few pages back does it in 98 seconds.
Alyosha
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Not sure if you got it worked out yet or not Arc, but to get a good dragon spawn it looks like you need only turn left as the body spawns but a frame before the head does. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26787672556905349 Here is a slightly modified file of yours that does it, I believe without losing any frames, it might work in your original file too. Hope it helps. EDIT: oh yeah, also if I just walked forward instead of turning left, I died, apparently the game thought I was at the edge of the screen? I'm sure you know about this just thought I'd mention it.
Alyosha
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Zugzwang wrote:
I haven't checked this forum in a while but found your improvement today, great job. Several years ago I had found an improvement in A and held onto it thinking I try to improve the other levels as well, unfortunately life got in the way! I will see if I can't dig it up for you. Cheers!
An improvement in A? I can't imagine what it might be, yes please do send it my way so it can be included.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26784423977105053 Here is an improvement WIP. Most of the improvement comes from having Minnie longer in level 1 by getting a better spawn on the capture enemy. It gains and loses lag frames for the rest of the run after that. Manipulating fairies / capture enemies comes down to killing or not killing enemies. So it's actually not too hard to manipulate what room to spawn the last fairy in the room with the pirate. The harder part is getting it to spawn in the correct spot near the left side of the room. This seems to depend on the frame I enter. Similarly with the enemy that captures minnie in level 1, it would save more time for it to spawn near the window instead of the ladder, but I couldn't quite get it to work. More importantly, this run also syncs in NEShawk. The published one does not, while Randil's one before that did (with some added frames at the start.) The desync in my curent published run happens at the first set of bears in level 3. SO this time I made sure that it would sync in bizhawk for the best potential chance at being console verifiable. I don't think this is the final version, the better enemy spawn and some more lag reduction should still be possible. Once again anyone can feel free to jump in, I'll probably need the help to get a final V2 done.
Alyosha
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Sorry I am out of time to work on this . I'm not sure if arc's improvement can be preserved or if other improvements are possible. Perhaps judge this one and maybe there will be a version 2 at some point in the future . Thank you!
Alyosha
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Arc wrote:
I tried fighting the boss of The Ocean and was 5 frames faster. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26561776830838838
Yes there are several areas, this being one of them, that can be done faster. I believe The Ocean can be beaten ~ 15 frames faster, the problem is RNG. Any improvement in level 2 has to spawn a fairy correctly in the first part of level 3, for anyone interested in trying this means 07F9 should be a 2 when you start playing level 3 (in your file Arc it is a 3.) Also, you will need to get 07F9 to be a 1 in the third part of level 3. So any improvement will need to consider at least these factors. Good luck! vvvvvvv @samsara: I'm done, only speaking for myself though.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26559500031674055 ok! please replace the movie file with this one. Finally killed the last boss with the fairy. Well that is some pretty amazing luck, it was already there staring me in the face. At least now another TAS mystery put to rest. : ) will update submission text accordingly.
Alyosha
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D: D: D: wait a minute, I already have a fairy spawning in the room where the pirate is, how could I have missed that!! I just tested it and I successfully killed the last boss with this fairy. Well I do feel stupid now,but expect a replacement file in an hour or so.
Alyosha
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Oh good idea, I never even tested it before. Well I just did now and nope it won't save time, it simply takes too long to take damage. In level 1, the only thing dealing 2 damage is getting directly hit by the cat and chandelier, but since you get invulnerability frames after that it doesn't save time to just stand next to the cat. This adds up to 2.5 lost seconds, or 150 frames. Dying takes about 450 frames. So about 600 are used in this method. In the save minnie method, it adds up 1.5 seconds to lose minnie (and the time you would save using the minnie quick exit trick) plus another 430 frames to rescue minnie (from frame 6570 to 7000), so about 520 frames total. So nope, not faster, but close and worth it to check
Alyosha
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Heidman wrote:
Any updates?
At the moment I am out of leads. The most likely scenario is starting to seem like random hardware error. The thing is that flipping one bit at any time will end the level, and there are about 3 bits that would have this same effect as demonstrated in the movie, so a random error has 3 chances of success. But personally I'm not really comfortable with that explanation so the search continues, even though I have so far found nothing remotely interesting. To sum up what's been looked at so far: Object table corruption: Nothing interesting, gets reset on game reset Stack corruption: game uses stack memory for sound effects and some variables related to backpack guy, clears the stack up to about 01CF. Strange effects could result if the stack pointer got low enough, but doesn't even come close without hacking. Backpack guy generation edge case: nothing relevant. General glitch hunt: nothing interesting, the game seems to do things pretty carefully. If anyone has any theories, I'd be happy to hear them!