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Alyosha
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Oh nice, the other 200 series run finally getting worked on soon then. I think that one is going to have some pretty big improvement potential. I believe omnipotententity already had a wip saving several seconds. I still haven't had much progress on combatribes, hard to find the motivation for that one. Another interesting thing to notice is that once metal storm is done along with super pitfall, the oldest NES runs will be Battletoads warpless. Hard to believe such a popular / well known game would be there. I wonder who will take those up?
Alyosha
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Arc wrote:
I just tested and the upper route to the medicine is about 40-50 frames faster. So that will have to be edited in.
please replace the movie file with this one: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/24216125938239888
jlun2 wrote:
How does clipping downward through the floor even work? What kind of flawed mechanic is that?
It seems to be functionally the same as the wall clip. It can even happen when you are just normally walking along, its pretty random. As far as I can tell these glitches come from a memory address not being reset after an interrupt call.
Alyosha
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I gave the path you suggested one more try and was able to get it work without the bird enemy. Somehow I just needed to pick just the right starting frame. in the end it saves about 100 frames. So final time: 17115 frames ~4:45 @AngerFist: this was fun to work on and make rapid discoveries. I imagine that this is what TASing was like 5-10 years ago when many things were still new. Kabuki quantum fighter I still can't save 1 frame on, but I haven't looked in a while, maybe brute force can help me there too.
Alyosha
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Almost like that, I had to go straight up to lure over the bird enemy from the top open platform to make it work. I believe the run is complete, so unless you have more ideas , I can submit soon. This run came a long way really fast from 6:20 to 4:46
Alyosha
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jlun2 wrote:
Is that long detour down needed? Can this be clip be done on midair by bruteforcing A/B presses?
Confirmed to be possible! It is slow at the moment but should save time eventually at the climb after girl rescue EDIT: I am back up to the triple wall clip to rescue the girl. At this point, if I completed the run exactly the same as before, I would be at ~5:06. So 6 seconds of savings left to find. Final time: 4:46 hurray! (17222 frames)
Alyosha
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^ It only takes 1 jump to clip into the ladder from the left platform, much faster then trying to do it that way. I tried what you suggest in that video, but Harry grabs the balloon so its not faster to just jump directly in. Turns out neither route idea is faster. The warp takes too long to load for the second idea, and the first idea just is too slow to get the medicine. EDIT: maybe I spoke too soon. It turns out you can jump straight down into the ladder when you do the key first route, I didn't expect this to be possible. This find could potentially make key first faster if I can get back up quick enough. My estimates so far are almost spot on. I am back to the first waterfall after getting the key. Once I get to the vulture I'll know which is faster. Well I must have done something wrong in my estimates somewhere, because it is a LOT faster to get that key first. Old route: 10400 to medicine New Route: 9200 to medicine I think we are in sub 5 minute territory now! It will be close with the spade card wall clip.
Alyosha
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Nice find! A rough TAS of that saves about 100 frames. It seems you have to wait for it to go down a certain way before making it disappear, otherwise it kills you for some reason. I tried avoiding the elevator all together by going backwards and clipping up the wall after getting the diamond, but no luck so far. Still testing key first routes, but still need a faster route back after getting the diamond. EDIT: I finally managed to clip through the vulture caverns wall. Now it is possible to enter the vulture near the diamond and exit at the vulture near the balloon. The clip itself takes about 3 seconds, and its a long climb up (around 9 seconds), but this opens the door to new routes. My first idea is key first, then diamond, enter diamond vulture and go from there. Whether or not this is faster is still to be determined. Current route: 1. vulture to balloon after diamond: 42 seconds 2. balloon to vulture warp after key: 36 seconds 3. entrance to medicine: 18 seconds Potential route: 1. fall to balloon from start: 14 seconds 2. balloon up to surface: 33 seconds 3. diamond vulture to medicine: So if the second route adds up to less then 96 seconds, it will save time. The first part is roughly 14 from where the paths diverge. Going back up will take some work. But a rough TAS looks like it will take 33 seconds to get back to where the route rejoins the route to get the diamond. So about 47 of our 96 seconds is used. Leaving 49 seconds to get from inside the vulture to the medicine. Playing through by hand from right after the clip, it looks like it is going to be very close. Another route idea I had, that probably is actually faster, is to use the diamond vulture warp after diamond and then exit right away at the balloon vulture and go get the key from there. I will test this now, but I am optimistic for at least 5 seconds savings.
Alyosha
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jlun2 wrote:
Since the OoB areas seems to be filled with random junk, is there a way to quickly spawn an elevator there over and over or some other sprites?
no idea. I might come back to this after finishing the regular run. I am 500 frames ahead of the most recent run, and am up to the wall clip past the balloon, slightly better then I expected. EDIT: 700 frames ahead to the vulture cave due to clip climbing the long wall. Brute force to the rescue.
Alyosha
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So I tried to clip by the elevator by riding it down a bit and jumping back up (hoping it would disappear once off screen) but instead it stayed even though another one appeared above. Out of curiosity I tried to make more and more, and I got up to at least 10. At that point other things like enemies wouldn't spawn as I rode them down, but I could still do things like shoot bullets. Possibility for some kind of stack overflow to happen I think, but who knows if the results will be useful, its also pretty slow to set up.
Alyosha
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10 seconds was a bit too optimistic, 5 seconds for that clip. My current complete WIP is 5:45.3 I saved ~2 seconds with the new waterfall clip and optimized running skipping the spade card. 5 seconds for the new balloon clip. 7-8 seconds spade wall clip ~3 seconds if I can make the clip work while climbing the wall. So I'd say 5:25 is reasonable to aim for. New balloon clip route: Being able to get the key this way, there is nothing stopping us from getting the key first. Then we can go back up and get the Raj Diamond. then jump in the vulture near the diamond. If we can perform wall clips in the vulture cave area, we can go from the lower one up to the higher one and exit at a different vulture. This will save a lot of running around, the question is if going down to get the key then going all the way back up is worth it. First to test wall clipping in vulture area. Result: clips are not possible there, back to the drawing board. but there might still be a route with key first being faster.
Alyosha
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^ ventuz had suggested that clip to me originally but I couldn't get it to work. Maybe now that I can just brute force attempts something will come of it. Another idea I had is to clip into the the area with the key from above (where the balloon is) using the same glitch that is used to dodge the second stone head. Not sure how viable it is, but I'll see if I can get it to work. EDIT: woah! It actually worked! This should save at least 10 more seconds.
Alyosha
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if you clip one step into the wall at the waterfall at the very beginning of the game, you can press down and fall onto the platform below. Currently testing if this is faster then the first wall clip. EDIT: result: 110 frames saved! This also saves me some bullets which will save some frames later.
Alyosha
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Good thinking! I should have thought of that. Ok I am sending this to gruefood, time to start from scratch with some fresh thinking.
Alyosha
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shooting (and the shooting animation) make the clips go much faster, by bout a factor of 2 as far as I can tell, so the shots are definitely needed. I will test that route, interesting idea. @jlun2: good question, I have never tested it, I guess I will throw Harry against a wall for a while and see what happens. In other news, I just successfully clipped through the 3 walls to get to the girl and saved over 6 seconds! Look like there is still more to this game yet! EDIT: the new route is very close. So far I have one quick ladder slide and a pretty optimized route, but its 20728 frames new route and 20692 old route.
Alyosha
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mklip2001 wrote:
Nice improvement! The zip that avoids the death over the spike pit was pretty cool, though the escape from the girl's room is also interesting. Would it save you any frames of input to jump before the ending and let momentum carry you down to the location that triggers the ending screen?
Nope, as soon as you start falling you fall at full speed. The reason I usually jump to get down pits is that when you jump, you can still control left and right movement. When you just walk off, you just fall straight down. EDIT: Wait, D: I see what you mean now, you are right! Good catch! (fixed)
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/24065823953371508 Alright the update is finally done. In the end it was just under 5:50, so its a 30 second improvement compared to the published run, and ~18 second improvement over my last one. I even managed to make a video! Link in the submission. PLease update the movie file with this one.
Alyosha
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Death no longer saves time! With sufficient brute force I was able to skip the second death with a wall clip. Problem now is I don't know how to do the sink into the floor glitch to get the by the second stone head. Once I figure that out run should be quickly finished.
Alyosha
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With my brute force script I'll be starting back from the first clip and just brute forcing my way through. Since there are ~4^200 ways to press A/B in the time it takes to do a wall clip, I'll just have run it for long enough that the final result is optimal enough.
Alyosha
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So it looks like I will have to delay / cancel this submission after all. The amount of improvement I am getting from random brute force search is getting pretty large. For example the first wall clip in the original run can be done in under 1 second. So, stay tuned for a sub 6 minute run! I have no heuristics to really know when to press buttons, so it's all quite random, and the challenge now will be conserving gun ammo as a variable too. Which is best, delay or cancel?
Alyosha
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Ahhh I see, good thinking! Since the glitch seems to be an interrupt timing of some sort, I created a lua script that just blindly tries random inputs over a 600 frame window to try and get through that wall. Incredibly, the winner so far did it in under 5 seconds. unfortunately I have had no such luck with the water wall. It takes significantly longer to get through since you need to go through the whole wall. Might be out of luck there. For now I will implement this and see what happens.
Alyosha
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Looking at the map: http://vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/SuperPitfall-DarkLair.png I don't think walking through the wall after getting the girl will save time. There isn't a quick way to get back to the warp point. You have to do a zig zag type path to the left. EDIT: at the moment I am ~250 frames slower going through the wall, and I got through the wall in ~500 frames. So unless that can be cut in half, looks like it's slower. Going to the right would work but you have to do another wall clip at the wall below the warp to jump up into it (avoiding the rope swinging.) I tested this, but there isn't enough on screen to make the glitch happen frequently enough to work. Going through the 3 walls to get the girl would take far longer than 20 seconds based on the testing I've done so far. not sure about going into the water to go through the wall in challenge 1. EDIT: you can get through that wall in the water rather quickly, so there might be an improvement there after all!
Alyosha
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The SM64 folks always amaze me, keep it up!
Alyosha
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Arc wrote:
I've tested two particularly useful spots and found them to be possible to wall clip through. The question of whether the run could be faster depends on how quickly I can get through those walls. I'll have to test completely. One of them looks more likely than the other to be a time-saver.
I had tested a couple of potential wall clips as suggested to me by ventuz, but never came close to saving any time with them. I will be pretty surprised if you are able to get something to work. good luck!
Alyosha
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Submission text fixed. Somehow I missed the first line. Also added why the game over warp is removed.
Alyosha
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EDIT: obsolete I found a new enemy manipulation trick that saves the girl much faster, please replace the movie file with this one. (sorry spikestuff)