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We only count % when it actually means something in-game, like in Super Metroid.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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You're losing 5 frames after the skip in level 2, up to level 3 start. I tried basic lag reduction and saved 16 frames up to the boss spawn.
Branch 4 is when you spawn the boss, branch 5 is when I do.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Better compared to what?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Lobsterzelda wrote:
There are a lot of times where I see a run on the workbench which is pretty boring for me to actually watch, but is extremely optimized and a good example of TASing. However, by convention I vote yes on the workbench poll for these, even though I'm not very entertained by them.
Even if I believe that the quality of a run lends itself to publication in moons or vault tier, that doesn't necessarily mean that I found the run very entertaining. Even for movies of popular games which get accepted into moons, I still sometimes run into the issue of not wanting to vote no because I think that the movie should be published (but I don't necessarily find it entertaining).
On the other hand, there are also occasionally runs submitted to the workbench which have some unoptimal or sloppy parts that should prevent them from being published. However, when I watch the movie itself, I am entertained by it anyway. However, I feel obliged to vote no on the workbench poll, because me voting yes would imply to some that I believe that the movie is optimized enough that it should be published, when in reality, all I want to say is that I was entertained by watching the movie.
Just like the current, single question can be completely misinterpreted in so many ways regardless of what we actually use it for when judging a movie, imagine how much misinterpretation 2 or 3 questions will introduce. When assessing ideas we shouldn't limit our take on them to just their pros. We need to ponder their contras and compare ideas based on these 2 scales. Only then we will be able to tell which idea is better, clearer, harder to misuse for a large crowd.
If people don't want to post and explain their impression behind just one vote, what will make expressing those details via several anonymous polls more reliable? It will just skew the overall feedback even heavier. And quite predictably, it will encourage people to completely disregard the thread, since every tiny detail can now be expressed via these 3 polls.
Memory wrote:
Warp wrote:
If the poll and the discussion in the thread agree with each other, then there's little problem in terms of judging. However, if there seems to be some kind of disagreement between the poll and the discussion, this could induce the judge to consider the tier decision more carefully, and perhaps even ask the community some questions in the thread if necessary, and ask for more opinions and clarification.
This is pretty much how I use the polls.
That's how we all do it.
DrD2k9 wrote:
However if the majority of voters are in disagreement with the judge, the judge knows that a more thorough explanation of why the movie does/doesn't fit the rules is warranted as part of the judgement note.
If all you have is votes and no posts, there's nothing to argue about, because no posts provide no insights or hints regarding viewers' opinions. So we ask for them, and then apply our knowledge about tiers, deciding if the silent votes stand against it. But this data is never totally ignored. If we have 0 No votes and 50 Yes votes, we will not blindly send a movie to Vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Morimoto has never made a "game end glitch" run. He's made a "warps" run, and that run is alive and well, as Masterjun said.
Then, I guess the final paragraph isn't clearly saying that "game end glitch" is being obsoleted and not "warps", but the whole context clearly shows that this is the case. Obsoleting "warps" wasn't even considered once. Apparently, reading at least The Verdict is required before one feels like arguing against it, and it looks like you haven't done so.
I'll turn those into headers now.
EDIT:
http://tasvideos.org/6466S.html#Verdict
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
But now it has been reduced to this. What was once a marvelous show of extraordinary superhuman gameplay, with the player seemingly achieving superhuman feats that are essentially impossible for mere mortals... is now but just an ending screen, and that's it. This is what the grandfather of TASing, the precursor, the originator, has been reduced to. Just an ending screen. There's nothing to see in this run anymore but just that. No gameplay, no marvelous superhuman feats, no extraordinary maneuvers, nothing. Just an ending screen.
For this to be done to the original one, of all. I would be lying if I said that I'm not deeply disappointed. What a disgrace.
I must confess that my passion for following TASing is getting worryingly low. Game after game is being broken more and more, until there's nothing left of what made TASing so marvelous in the beginning. TASes are becoming boring. It's like taking something beautiful and extraordinary to watch, a marvelous piece of art, and hammering it into a minuscule boring cube of trash that has nothing interesting to it. When the most "interesting" part of a TAS is reading a miles-long wall-wall-of-text technical description, something has gone horribly wrong.
Meh.
I've been telling you foryears that no one is taking down direct successors of superplays you've liked in the past. Branches you seem to be (or supposed to be) proud of keep existing just fine, alongside new glitched to death ones. You keep making it sound like we're obsoleting "regular any%" runs with "game end glitch" runs, over the course of many years. It's been explained several times that it's not true, and it's trivial to check for yourself.
And I think we can now answer the question I asked in the first post I linked. You don't actually enjoy "regular any%" movies, otherwise you'd be happy they're still alive and well. You just want "game end glitch" (or ACE any%) branches to stop existing. And it's the idea you've been pushing for, for all these years.
Warp wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
But you seem to only want to whine and complain that the entire community doesn't follow lockstep with your opinions.
I'm frankly getting completely tired of me not being able to express a dissenting opinion without some a-hole immediately starting to accuse me of wanting "the entire community to do what I want". Nowhere did I say anything of the sort. I was expressing my opinion. Are you capable of understanding that someone can express a personal opinion without it being a demand for the community to do something?
Since co-existence of "regular any%" and "game end glitch" runs doesn't make you happy as we established, and you don't want the latter to exist at all, it's absolutely impossible for our community to make you happy by incorporating your notion as useful feedback. Because that'd mean people would have to loose content they're enjoying.
Years ago I've been told that incorporating user feedback into policies is not what communities are meant to do. Like, they just express their feelings, it's never meant to be taken as a potential course of the site.
Then a few people merely expressed their opinions about the "glitched" branch label, and merely expressed the desire to change it for the entire site, and boom, it led to a complete mess (like SNES Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "no L+R, no null egg glitch").
So with this movie, we seem to be completely stuck. It's impossible to make a viewer happy no matter what we do. It's impossible for the viewer to stop complaining no matter what we do. It's impossible to account for the viewer feedback, because other viewers will be unhappy. And apparently, it's also impossible to make the viewer understand that we're stuck, and this can't be resolved.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If we have to unpublish a movie that way, it means our rules are not making too much sense, especially those that are meant to be as solid as possible (Vault rules).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Alyosha wrote:
If a game was published with a thought to be maximum score run and that game was later found to have infinite score potential, then just kill off the category and obsolete it with any other category, maybe just with an explanation of the technique and why the maximum score category is now dead.
The whole reason we're having this talk is games with no way to have goals other than any%. Vault only allows full completion and fastest completion, and for some games full completion is impossible because you can't complete "all X". So if a movie like this gets invalidated, there will be nothing to obsolete it with.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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There's an option of just allowing infinite scoring. No technique would have to be banned (aside from memory manipulation), and the score would actually not be infinite since it either overflows or saturates, and the run is meant to end after that. But movies could last for several days.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Okay yes I don't have any good arguments pro "either score or time must be better and none is allowed to be worse. It feels like a workaround and it's not clear what problem it actually fixes.
With infinite score environments, just like we ban certain techniques from 100%, we can ban certain techniques for max score. For example any technique that would allow scoring more points until the counter saturates or overflows can be disallowed. For some games that would lead to no way of having a max score run, and I guess that's acceptable.
New draft (the clause about ending-less games is identical to what we already have for all cases, so I dropped it):
Max score
The goal of obtaining maximum possible score for a Vault movie is allowed under the following conditions only:
There is no way to define full completion for that game, because there is no way to collect or complete "all X" for any given criterion, aside from fastest completion.
If a way to define full completion is discovered later on, a movie that does it obsoletes the "max score" run that is in Vault.
Techniques that allow overflowing or saturating the score count (infinite scoring environments) should not be used.
Like with full completion, score must be gained by the in-game means and not by memory manipulation glitches.
The problem that still remains for me is that game completion may require techniques allowing infinite scoring, or at least some variation of those.
If a certain in-game action allows you to complete the game, but also can be used to score infinitely, of course we can just ban such games from vaultable max score.
But what if an in-game action is required for completion, but only a slight variation of it scores infinitely? Like, imagine you score infinitely if you go left, and you only score 100 if you go right, and either option wins the game. Calling the latter "max score" feels really dumb. But what's dumber is how tiny the difference between allowed and banned in-game actions can be.
Add to the equation discovering only after publication that some of those actions can score infinitely:
<Masterjun> in other words, we cannot ban games based on dynamic things such as the techniques
<Masterjun> (because we inevitably run into a situation where we have to ban a game after a publication)
This fundamental ambiguity doesn't seem to be eligible for vault at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It shouldn't reach that old screen later than the old movie, we'd just demand additional content on top of that former kill screen.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'll need to read the manual, and look for other P2 input checks in the code.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Proposed addition to http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#Vault_2Max score
The goal of obtaining maximum possible score for a Vault movie is allowed under the following conditions only:
There is no way to define full completion for that game, because there is no way to collect or complete "all X" for any given criterion, aside from fastest completion.
Overflowing or saturating the score does not count as reaching "max score", because it leads to delaying game completion for no good gameplay reason and damages the competitive nature of score maximization.
For games that have no clear ending, the movie end requirements remain the same as for fastest completion.
Like with full completion, score must be gained by the in-game means and not by memory manipulation glitches.
A "max score" movie reaching higher score than its predecessor can only obsolete it if it loses no time over it.
A "max score" movie of the same length as its predecessor should reach higher score to obsolete it.
I think this solves the problem with "infinite score" runs trying to obsolete "max score" runs after new tricks get discovered: you have to be slower in corresponding parts of the movie to get potentially infinite score, and we'd disallow it to be slower, even if it allows to get more score.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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[13:31:12] <feos> https://i.imgur.com/kzQVHPF.gif looks like a debug feature
[13:31:24] <feos> meant to be used to test screen scrolling
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Yeah but what does this check actually trigger? I doubt they explicitly make you screen-wrap, there should be some missing check somewhere.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I think we should not let the score overflow or stop at digital cap like 999999. The point of the competition with "max score" is that you never know how much you end up getting in the end, exactly like it works with movie length (it always approaches zero). Aside from that, the ending point remains the same as usual, with just another objective added on top - highest possible score.
Aside from that, should we allow sacrificing time to gain more score? I think if we allow that, one may delay game completion indefinitely, and we don't want that. The clearest solution would be disallowing longer movies to obsolete shorter ones: if score remains the same, we want shorter time; and if time remains the same, we want higher score.
And yes, score should only increment legitimately,without memory corruption techniques, as already said in the rules.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I don't think screen-wrapping is an intended thing. But the setup for it could be intentional, which can only be found out by reading the game code.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'd prefer an SMS game, also I'd prefer not Sonic.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Branch 4 is when you spawn the boss, branch 5 is when I do.
