The discussion was precisely about whether or not people got entertained by that other run, and about clarity of the goal. Most people were entertained, and most people considered the goal clear. Therefore it became a new Moon branch.
Acumenium wrote:
It had "Yes" votes because of who submitted it.
I already called you out on mindreading several times, you ignored it several times, and you're doing it once again. Stop it. Don't hallucinate reasons for people to give their votes on something. Collect actual data of what they say and how they explain it, and use that instead. Because you're assuming they're not honest, which means you're not honest yourself, or you're in denial of the reality you don't like.
Moreover, saying the audience is biased because people just personally like the authors completely disregards what happened in their previous submission.
Acumenium wrote:
The key difference is that Masterjun's SMB3 is not an arbitrary goal---the poll and thread were to determine Moons, which it, for whatever reason, got.
Stop hallucinating reality and presenting that as an undeniable proof that your uneducated opinion is the only one that's right. Start checking things you claim to be real. I called you out on that as well in the other thread and you decided to just move here with similar nonsense.
Acumenium wrote:
The SMB1 arbitrary jump amount got Moons due to votes because people saw HappyLee and SMB1. The actual thread no one commented on its interest factor---because there just isn't any, it's literally waiting in a floor for just over half of the run.
Should this run in this thread be accepted?
Yeah, if the arbitrary jump amount one was, and it was.
We've spent several pages explaining to you how it works and why "known minimum" is not "arbitrary number". You've lost that argument there and you're repeating the same nonsense once again in a different place. Stop it.
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Warp wrote:
Although one could question why it's necessary. I think everybody understands that certain degree of civility and good manners is to be expected. I highly doubt that someone scours such rules pages with a fine tooth comb and if they don't find something explicitly forbidding "hate speech", they take it as sign that they can freely engage in it, but if they see the sentence there, they will abstain from doing it. Forbidding something in some rules page isn't really any sort of deterrent.
It's a bit like saying "murder is not allowed here". Well, duh. I think that's clear to anybody without having to explicitly state it.
It's not how this works. People who care read it and act within those rules. Those who don't, get reminded and warned. And if someone ignores explicit mod warnings, they get banned.
New freenode staff removing the part about hate speech from their rules is not the main and only reason for us to move away. It's a combination of factors that clearly shows the new trend. The part that convinced me something is very very wrong is this document linked in the OP: https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Then I literally saw a certain IRC channel I've been in got hijacked and... canceled... for mentioning "libera.chat" in its topic. Similar to what DeHackEd describes. If we add "libera.chat" to the freenode version of #tasvideos, we will lose it too. Does that look like freedom of speech to you? Have you even read https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt?
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Warp wrote:
Where your principles start playing more of a role is if you are offering a public forum for people to express their opinions, but then silence opinions you personally don't like. The forum might be your personal property and you may have 100% the legal (and even moral) right to ban anybody you want for whatever reason you want, but your banning actions reveal your attitude towards other people's free speech. If two people, other than you, are having a conversation in your forum, the conversation is relatively civil, no insults and threats are being posted, no illegal material is being posted, do you intervene if the conversation is about topics you abhor? Do you have an attitude of "this is my forum, owned by me, I decide what topics are allowed", or do you have an attitude of "as long as the conversation remains civil and legal, I'm fine with the expression of any opinion, even if I personally don't like it." Do you defend their right to express their opinions, or do you want to restrict what is being discussed in your forum because you don't like certain topics?
I guess I have to repeat my question, because we do offer a public forum which has rules that are relevant to this discussion.
Warp wrote:
There is no "implicit endorsement of hate speech". They either endorse it or they don't. Show me where they endorse it and I'll agree with you. Removing some BS social justice language from some random policy page is not endorsement of anything.
TASVideos appears to have similar rules. Are they also "some BS social justice language"?
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Warp wrote:
There is no "implicit endorsement of hate speech". They either endorse it or they don't. Show me where they endorse it and I'll agree with you. Removing some BS social justice language from some random policy page is not endorsement of anything.
TASVideos appears to have similar rules. Are they also "some BS social justice language"?
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Why is it a valid branch and why should it obsolete?
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Acumenium wrote:
Super Mario Bros., like many NES games, likely has an ACE vulnerability in the form of a DPCM attack
Does it even have DPCM samples?
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So is TASVideoAgent being moved?
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Memory wrote:
However, this segment has an implicit assumption in it that menus etc. will not affect gameplay. This is frequently not true. While I see no issue with ignoring simple time differences between versions, if a movie is well optimized in terms of gameplay but has improvements in menuing, menuing should be seen as an improvement. Allowing one to freely delay the start of a game in order to manipulate RNG would be a bad precedent to set.
This segment should be edited at some point to reflect this.
We've had a staff talk and agreed that it should be updated:
http://tasvideos.org/diff.exe?page=MovieRules&rev=425&prev=424
If this movie was submitted alongside the current publication, we'd need to figure out which one improves more. A fair cutoff here is the movie length alone. And the only exception to judging it by movie length is when the ending actually occurs later. As long as the ending occurs sooner, it's also fair to improve menuing and whatnot.
If we don't allow that approach, then we implicitly allow menuing to be sloppy or delayed arbitrarily, as long as in-game time remains short. This really gets in the way of record keeping.
For Moons stuff it can be argued that a more complicated game deserves in-game improvements too, but even then, it's only if we can find those improvements.
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Zinfidel wrote:
- No memory cards (Slot A/B/SP1 all set to <Nothing>)
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Not participating is fine, I think it's just fair to keep you as a co-author, especially if no one is able beat your times.
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What's the right memory card setup for this run? Desyncs for me in the first level.
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But you saved a ton of time!
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HandsomeRudy wrote:
I guess it's my turn to fail now.
I discovered something that needs further investigation. Keep it delayed.
Wait this post used to link the new movie that I already used as a replacement, now it just says "keep it delayed". Is the work still being done?
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Sonia wrote:
By the way, will it be possible to change the NeoGeo Bios [URL=https://imgur.com/Sb9qFoK]like in mame[/URL]? The default European one isn't good because some games are censored (example: Metal Slug having white blood). I know it's possible to change it if you mess around with dipswitches, but other Bioses are already uncensored by default (plus allowing the games to be played in different languages).
Implemented!
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It's a great emu indeed but I don't know of a good way to emulate android in a tasable environment, and it's non-trivial to posrt j2meloader to windows or linux.
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Added support for DIP switches!
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Arc wrote:
People are saying only input matters, yet the movie rules contradict that thought. "There is no strict authorship rule for cases when research or development was contributed instead of actual movie input[, so such cases are left to the judge's discretion]." Saying that there is no strict rule means that sometimes that person should receive authorship credit, and sometimes that person shouldn't. Considering that I contributed a very large majority of the research and development of this movie, this certainly seems like a prime instance of deserving authorship. Otherwise why is this statement in the rules?
You can't make a point if you consistently fail to read:
feos wrote:
We respect when someone has built something from scratch, and we respect when someone whose input wasn't directly used is still credited due to massive contribution of some other kind. But we can not demand that co-authors are added if CC-BY-2.0 is not violated.
The person should receive credit if entertainment solutions (non-speed-critical actions) are directly copied. If they are not copied, it's up to the author whom to include as co-authors, and the judge decides whether it still makes sense based on significance of contribution.
Arc wrote:
CC2 says "You are free to ... remix, transform, and build upon the material for any purpose under the following terms: Attribution — You must give appropriate credit[.]" Is this movie not building on the previous movie's material? Synonyms for "build on" include expand on, develop, refine, and improve on (per thefreedictionary.com). Is that not what DreamYao did to the previous movie? (To be clear, of course players can improve other players' movies and claim authorship.)
The page you're quoting this from literally says at the top:
This is a human-readable summary of (and not a substitute for) the license.
The actual legal code if CC-BY-2.0 (that you somehow missed several times) defines "work" and "derivative work" as follows:
"Work" means the copyrightable work of authorship offered under the terms of this License.
Literally the movie file itself alone. You don't submit a bunch of ideas to tasvideos as a potent office. We don't handle ideas and their authorship, because it's never been the goal of the site. We handle movie files. We also encourage people to share their discoveries because that makes the resulting movies better.
"Derivative Work" means a work based upon the Work or upon the Work and other pre-existing works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which the Work may be recast, transformed, or adapted, except that a work that constitutes a Collective Work will not be considered a Derivative Work for the purpose of this License.
The phrase "base upon" may sound confusing if you take it out of context. If you just look it up in dictionaries, it refers to other synonyms in the same dictionary that refer to other synonyms, etc. Dictionaries don't provide absolute definitions that licenses could just refer to, which is why licenses are known for "redefining" a whole bunch of words, and those redefined meanings will be used to resolve a dispute, not third-party dictionaries.
So first, the license lists entities of the same nature, and then generalizes them to potentially include other entities of the same nature without having to exhaustively list them all.
any other form in which the Work may be recast, transformed, or adapted
We can also look at the dictionary meaning of the very word "derivative", shall we?
Copied or adapted from others
So. To finally and unambiguously prove that your work has been "recast, transformed, or adapted" in this movie, you'll need to provide examples of where your movie's input is directly copied, as we've been suggesting you this entire thread.
Saying "my movie was stolen and then completely changed to pretend it was original" is ignorant, arrogant, ridiculous, insulting, assumes bad faith, and scares contributors away if we support such a stance officially, directly or indirectly.
Arc wrote:
Again if the stance of the site is "our movie rules allow stealing ideas even though that directly contradicts the concept of plagiarism," the question is why is that the rule
If your stance if "I win by consistently failing to read", then this discussion is done.
Arc wrote:
I do believe that previous authors should be credited as authors as long as their ideas are still being used in the most recent movie.
We didn't ask you to repeat the same questionable claim over and over. We asked you to explain how to resolve problems that such an approach automatically causes.
Arc wrote:
In the interest of solution-seeking, I would be open to the 'Hollywood' solution to writing credits, which is to credit a limited amount of people who made the most significant contributions.
It's what we have the Thanks section of the submission text for. Arbitrary number of people and other entities can be credited for arbitrary things. Usually it's just people, and usually for things that made the resulting movie better.
Arc wrote:
So perhaps in cases like this one that are a mix of input and ideas from various people, movie authorship could include the ideas as standard policy but limit authorship to the 3 or so people who made the most significant contributions.
Am I right that you're repeating the same claim that you've completely failed to prove? You're consistently refusing to even check if this movie contains any of your input (or anyone else's for that matter). But you still claim that it does. This is going nowhere.
Arc wrote:
(Again this is just a suggestion for the sake of possibly reaching a reasonable agreement.)
Which problem is it trying to solve exactly?
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Arc wrote:
If the policy of the site really is that uncredited theft of ideas is acceptable and only input matters
By your logic no one is ever allowed to watch the movie they want to beat, because watching any part of that movie will automatically result in stealing ideas. So by your logic, every new iteration of any given branch is obliged to list all the previous authors who worked on that game.
Do you provide any options for people who actually invented something on their own independently? How do they prove it's not stolen? Yeah, by your logic they are obliged to prove their innocence, otherwise it's automatically plagiarism.
Arc wrote:
the whole point here is that this site's stance on plagiarism creates a bad faith environment with the apparent justification that crediting too many people, even when they deserve it, is somehow bad.)
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Arc wrote:
I submit movies allowing others to use my ideas as long as credit is given, per CC.
I'm still waiting for quotes from CC-BY-2.0 where it talks about ideas.
Arc wrote:
Plagiarism is passing off another person's ideas as your own without attribution; TASVideos does not have the authority to redefine this concept.
I'm still waiting for examples of input copy-paste contained in this movie. Because input is what we submit, judge, encode, and publish. We don't submit or encode ideas. Did you miss my link to our Movie Rules where they talk about co-authorship?
Arc wrote:
Plagiarism is easy to identify with these 3 steps:
Is the creator aware of the source material? (Yes)
Did the creator take ideas from the source material? (Yes)
Did the creator give credit to the source material? (No)
Where in the Movie Rules did you find that definition?
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My ideas and techniques are used in nearly all parts of this movie, with a few optimizations added.
CC BY 2.0 doesn't mention "ideas" or "techniques" though.
Arc wrote:
DreamYao waited until I had done all the hard work researching and discovering optimal manipulations, routes, tricks, etc throughout 11 TAS versions in 12 years and then swooped in to take all the credit for himself by slightly improving a few parts. It is ridiculous to believe that DreamYao completely independently created this movie. He improved on my work.
It's ridiculous to prove a claim just by stating that the opposite feels ridiculous. It's ridiculous to see that as a reason to assume bad faith and mindread, while also demanding something one hasn't proven (yet) to have deserved.
DreamYao didn't wait for 17 years just to take over the movie and the credits. He improved it after 5 years of no progress from you or anyone else. He only joined in 2019 and immediately started working on NES Batman. Look whose movie was improved. Not a lot of people are able to beat Aglar's times.
When other people are not happy with new improvements, they just beat them over again. And if this run is still improvable, the best way to resolve this is a framewar. Then all the participants can be credited. But so far, there's no information about Arc explicitly helping DreamYao in any way. And no information about blatant copy-paste. We respect when someone has built something from scratch, and we respect when someone whose input wasn't directly used is still credited due to massive contribution of some other kind. But we can not demand that co-authors are added if CC-BY-2.0 is not violated.
If your argument is "his movie is faster than mine therefore he did look at my movie as a reference, therefore I should be credited", it's not how we handle improvements that don't contain copy-paste. Otherwise with every new movie the list of authors would be growing indefinitely.
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EZGames69 wrote:
Unfortunately I’m not sure what this means for the current starred TAS of the game, I like both movies for different reasons. But I’m ok with the star being given to the playaround TAS if it has to be taken from BtP and BtT.
I don't know the game at all but I watched them side by side level by level, to compare the feel of gameplay. And gameplay in those 2 movies is completely different. It's 2 unrelated games that share the characters in terms of appearance, that all.
We've been giving a bunch of stars to games from the same franchise on the same platform if gameplay is drastically different. It kinda makes more popular games look like they're the only thing an average viewer should care about. But it's not like we've ever had to not give a star to an obscure game because of that. There should be general variety in the star list itself, but again, these 2 movies are different.
I don't think we have a single game with 2 starred movies yet. But does anyone know good arguments against such a situation? I personally prefer the playaround, the current star has seen its fame since 2017 already. But that doesn't sound like a good reason in isolation to remove the star.
EDIT:
I checked.
Sonic 3
SM64
SMB3
SMW
Super Metroid
and arguably Link's Awakening/DX
all have 2 stars. That's quite a precedent imo.
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Sonia wrote:
Pulirula still have garbled graphics and Gaiapolis still crashes the emu though. Just pointing that out if you want to look into those next.
And they work fine in actual mame?
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People, please test audio again! AV sync on long periods of time as well as audio after save/loading. Maybe still not perfect but should be much better!
Also added all the missing mnemonics ("!") mentioned in the thread.
Link is in the OP.
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