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Shouldn't it go to Moons? The obsoleted movie had quite decent rates.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I guess I'll encode this one as well. No improvements to expect shortly?
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AnS wrote:
The thing I don't like is that we keep using more and more heavy artillery for making the same level of achievements. I liked Pokemon Yellow "Arbitrary code", because the means were adequate to results. But when those heavy and debatable techniques are used for simple speedrunning (decreasing the movie length, but not improving on entertainment), this becomes much less impressive. You know, it's like if Neo was able to kill the Architect and then reprogram the whole Matrix directly just for the sake of dodging bullets. Not cool.
This is the natural development we are going through here. Somewhere people will get tired of technical overweight and start doing something that's completely natural by all means and showcase the very gameplay. I had the vision of that direction actually. But I'll never stop loving how insane things can go if you abuse the technical side.
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I still can't see the border you draw here that isn't based on your feelings/beliefs. Feelings can't go well without any clear logical base, otherwise each time you express them you're gonna cause an argument about whose feelings are more true. Also, for such a huge community, rules must be lead by fairness and common sense. And they can develop as some important points are found (like the Vault was invented).
My point has this logical ground:
Reset is really handled on a software level by EACH game. Some do it simple, some complicate it. Saving is handled on a software level by the game code as well. Some add checks and PREVENT corruption, some don't. Abusing the fault of not checking this process is completely similar to abusing an untested collision. Please disprove that logics.
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Battletoads disagree with you. Before you watch the intro, any reset you do brings you to the intro. If you finish watching it, resetting will let you skip the intro. See how reset is handled on the gameplay level? This means the game can handle reset differently, developers decide how.
Also, reset is a legal input, only some religious belief can tell the opposite. Again, there is at least one game that CAN NOT BE COMPLETED unless you seftreset. Not a gameplay action still?
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Warp wrote:
So you finally understand the difference? Good.
Gosh. Resetting is a gameplay action. Saving is a gameplay action. What makes doing both at once NOT a gameplay action? Being unintended by the developers? Then how the hell do you determine what is still allowed of the unintended actions to use in a TAS and what is not?
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Looks like it isn't.
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No frame war. I'd accept it already.
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I wonder what'd be next?
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12 buttons are present on regular SNES controller. This run ises 16. SNES mouse allows 32. What sounds more sure than that?
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ALAKTORN wrote:
Nach wrote:
Well guess what, the SNES Mouse was official, and the mouse movements inputs way more bits than the standard pad does.
that is the question I have been making the whole time… why do you think I’m against the publication of this movie?
all I wanted was clarification, if the mouse allows for the run to be playable on real hardware, that’s ok with me
Tried reading the previous page?
feos wrote:
SNES mouse accesses not just 16 bits, but even 32. The signaling protocol places no limits on length of packet.
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<GhostSonic> any SNES controller that uses dual 4021s has the necessary pins to support the extra 4 buttons. Mario Paint actually checks for one of these extra buttons being pressed. The SNES mouse reports one of them being pressed while polling in order to indicate the mouse is plugged in.
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[04:00] <Mothrayas> HOW DARE YOU PUBLISH TASES THAT CANNOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN EVER (unless I do research) I QUIT THE SITE FOREVER NOW
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ALAKTORN wrote:
an official controller is something Nintendo endorsed, there should be some kind of Nintendo seal of approval on said controller’s box, I’d imagine?
Can't see any on this one. Guys, our movies are illegal. Only the SNESbot made by Nintendo can be used to verify SNES TASes, otherwise ALAKTORN won't agree.
[03:48] <GhostSonic> I've already console verified a proof of concept that uses the extra 4 buttons if that's relevant at all
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I agree with ais523, if the controller isn’t an official one then it’s as relevant as using a famiclone to do TASes
but if there’s an official controller that allows for the run to be played on real hardware, that’s cool; I didn’t understand which was the case from your post
I wonder how at all you can talk about console verification when none of the tools we feed the console input from was released by Nintendo.
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NES has 8 buttons. NES PowerPad has 12. There are also the third party controllers advertised by Nintendo. If this doesn't prove one can make real buttons for these 4 bits, I don't know what does.
Also, Ilari said multitap DOES give access to these 4 bits (and more than that). And SNES mouse accesses not just 16 bits, but even 32. The signaling protocol places no limits on length of packet.
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If I keep in mind that quote during watching this run, I am so prompted to laugh that I can almost vote Yes on it:
AKheon wrote:
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks once. But I fear the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times."
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Warp wrote:
Apparently you are unable to comprehend the difference between "harware abuse" and "abusing programming errors in the game" and think that opposing one means opposing the other as well.
Warp wrote:
Resetting during saving is not playing the game, plain and simple. It's messing with the hardware.
Okay.
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Warp wrote:
Nice non-answer.
Let's see...
Warp: Everything but speedrunning must be banned for TASing.
feos: TASing must be completely free in its creativity.
Warp: It's not playing the game.
feos: Some people think TASing isn't playing the game fairly too.
Warp: What does that have to do with anything?
feos: The same your claims have to do with TASing.
The correct answer is NOTHING. But some can't read between the lines.
The problem with Warp's points is that there CAN NOT be a strict border for what actions can be considered allowed glitches and what are disallowed glitches. Battletoads jumping over the tube is allowed or not? Dying on a jet? Performing a hyper jump? All 3 can be done on console in real time. 1 of them can break the game right to the end if you randomly press the buttons successfully. Is it playing the game? Everything here gets stuck into the personal arbitrary ideas like "TASing is cheating".
It's also amusing how people claim something for ever.
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Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
Some people also consider TASing cheating.
I fail to see the connection. Some people consider abusing glitches in unassisted speedruns to be "cheating". So what? What does that have to do with anything?
The same your claims have to do with TASing.
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Some people also consider TASing cheating.
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TASing allows DIFFERENT types of tricks that are possible with direct access to input. It can not be limited by speedrunning only, because it would not make sense to limit it this way. It's creativity. And it involves a good level of education. And it showcases something. It is interesting to do and to watch after all!
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If a child receives a box containing an expensive toy as a birthday present, it's possible that he'll enjoy the box more than the toy. This is creativity. We're doing the same for these games. Instead of walking on the paths created for us, we create our own paths, our own legs and so on. And we're not listening to people who say "you can't do that!". Just like children.
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There seems to be NO potential limit for how deep we are allowed to go in manipulating the hardware. This is what perfection does. We discover not only the games limits, but the limits of common sense :D
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TAS geeks are almost incarnate superhumans, and they are already superhumans compared to us. What's hard for us is easy for them. I'm sure Aglar or Randil could shave at least a few frames out of this movie.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If it desyncs, try changing the video memory settings or something like that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
