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I think what exists is an empty object. You assign the value to it by saving something.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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adelikat wrote:
feos wrote:
That's where you will need test ROMs and quite some stats.
Well, that essentially achieves the same results as Derakon is suggesting. Because it has to be likely enough that a human could verify it to be possible or else we will never be able to verify it being possible.
It's not the same. He wants a proof it is frequent enough. I want a documentation that will directly help improving emulators in the needed way, and tell people it is possible at all (as in, even 1 chance in 123456 million years is possible "at all"). So stats are only needed to prove it to people so that we could start actually abusing the hell it of it with no more proofs. What hegyak says.
To Derakon:
If it expands the "laboratory" too much for you, what about setting such "over the line TAS content" in the Demo tier? It is unique, no one did it before, it requires deep programming knowledge, it is interesting what will it end up with - all what people do demos for!
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Derakon wrote:
For example, we could say that if you need to have more than 32 bits have precise values, then your movie is too demanding. After all, assuming random bit states that's a 1 in 4 billion chance -- if it took you 1 second to attempt each run, you'd be running, on average, for 136 years before you'd get a version that synced.
On the other hand, a run that only required 8 bits to be specific values would need, on average, 256 attempts, which isn't unreasonable.
To introduce something into TASing, we don't need to prove that something is likely enough to happen. We only need to prove it is possible at all. That's where you will need test ROMs and quite some stats.
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Read the post.
We can already start from presetting some mapper register to whatever value the devs did not care about and publishing it.
But to start abusing uninitialized RAM officially, we will need to make some real hardware tests with test ROMs written to flash cards. So that the very first values that are read from RAM are displayed on the screen as a table, allowing to scroll through it all and document (dump somehow?) For several copies of each console we TAS we need to run these tests to collect scientifically reliable stats. Then we can change the "default" RAM pattern to something verified by real life. That is for movies that don't rely on dirty RAM. And then we would allow to set the values arbitrarily, with a special tag in pubs.
So introducing some breaking and brand new concept only requires good statistical base and emulation support.
EDIT:
There is an omnipresent point of view that these tricks kill the spirit of tool-assisted speedrunning. Well, they don't kill anything as long as it is still here, public and available. But these features open a great room for that Demo tier thing. Will anyone consider its need when it's not playing the game, but fucking around with it? I can't pick an easier word when I hear about total control runs and uninitialized RAM potential.
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Before I read the post:
We should expand our TAS playground by all that is achievable in real life. It would require tricky emulation features (keeping the CD-drive open and whatnot), but as long as it happens, it is justified. If games fail to initialize something, it's their fault.
WST wrote:
However, I think that runs which abuse the initial state that differs from the emulator’s default, should not obsolete the «normal» ones when publishing.
They will have to, if the low-glitch versions are not entertaining.
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Personman wrote:
feos wrote:
It does skip more than half of the game at once. It in no way near the any% concept either. The game itself is just fucked up, so you don't even need to corrupt memory to break it to death and abuse.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. By this logic, the mario64 0-star run isn't an any% run. There are plenty of Vault examples too; that rpg that wins on the first frame comes to mind.
The entire point of any% is to complete the game as fast as possible. If we can skip 99% of the game, we absolutely should. Trying to separate it from memory corruption is one thing (that I personally don't agree with, and which certainly doesn't apply here), but trying to define a percentage of the intended game that must be completed is just crazy.
I think you missed the part where I said that no one bothers. Calling something ridiculous doesn't help, you know. Spawning a serious discussion about what you are interested in, does help though.
adelikat wrote:
feos wrote:
But currently it is just not the case. So I'm speaking in consistency with the current categorization.
That's fine, except that you must understand that the vault wording isn't based on that. Whether that is an error is up for debate, but the meaning of "any%" means fastest completion time at all costs.
I must not need to guess what a word means to someone. I look at the page, I read any%, I look at the published movies, any% is skipped from the branch name, glitched isn't. any% != glitched by what I see on the site.
Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
I have no problems with calling "glitched" runs "any%" and the current "any%" ones that have the faster glitched versions something else, as long as the low-glitch versions are preserved if their entertainment value deserves separate publication.
I believe this is key, and this is also why the vault only allows Any% and 100% runs: "low-glitch versions are preserved for their entertainment value". They are: that's what moon tier is for. If a run shows off more of the game by not clipping through walls, not going out of bounds, and avoiding warp zones, then the run is judged on entertainment and eligible for moon tier if people like it.
But vault tier and any% are about reaching the end of the game using any and all tricks in the book, and regardless of how garbled ridiculous this looks in the video. And because of this, runs that exploit some glitch obsolete runs that don't use that glitch; as far as I've seen this is consistently applied.
That doesn't apply to runs who corrupt memory to execute an arbitrary program, but those are pretty rare. It does apply to any other glitch, because we can't objectively define a difference between a "high glitch" vs a "low glitch" run.
Great point. If something is once again adjusted at the Vault page, this run is even perfectly vaultable to obsolete the current one. Switching to the savestate discussion now.
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Not beating (or matching) all know records was the reason. If someone makes his won run and matches the time per room, it will be accepted.
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adelikat wrote:
Feos, you seem flat out wrong about something, or I am misunderstanding your posts. Vault rules say the categories are any% and 100%. The definition of any% in this case is THE FASTEST POSSIBLE COMPLETION TIME. Unfortunately, I have allowed the site to blur that simple definition of any% by having a "glitched" category that is faster than a "any%" category in some cases. I completely disagree with this categorization though. any% should be the fastest movie, then we should have a better naming of movies that forgo major skips/glitches.
The vault absolutely prefers the faster movie, not a (more ambiguous) movie that fails to do a time saving glitch.
For now it's your own opinion. I have no problems with calling "glitched" runs "any%" and the current "any%" ones that have the faster glitched versions something else, as long as the low-glitch versions are preserved if their entertainment value deserves separate publication. But currently it is just not the case. So I'm speaking in consistency with the current categorization.
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Suggestion taken. SoR2 now has more votes, but the ones from SoR3 are higher. Any thoughts which one deserves it more?
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Radiant wrote:
That's an interesting distinction; it does make sense but it would require some cleaning up, because as near as I can tell the category tag "heavy glitch abuse" and the label "glitched" in a run's title are used interchangeably, and for both of these.
As I said, no one really cares. It is mostly decided case by case.
Radiant wrote:
In the meantime, this Cheetahmen run clearly falls in the former category; it doesn't corrupt memory the way these other movies (or the famous Pokemon Pi Dance) do.
It does skip more than half of the game at once. It in no way near the any% concept either. The game itself is just fucked up, so you don't even need to corrupt memory to break it to death and abuse.
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Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
Can someone list the runs that skip half of the game at once and are still any%? I only can remember any%'s that skip some levels from the middle to the next level start. And glitched runs either skip from the middle of the game to its end, or break the gameplay hard enough to deserve a glitched category.
There are several "glitched" runs in the vault, such as Chrono Trigger, Legendary Stafy, Earthbound Zero, and Wizardry III; all of these bypass most or all of the game, e.g. the last one does so by glitching the final quest item into a shop, then simply buying it. The Chrono Trigger run was also ruled to obsolete this non-glitched run, since both are "any%" and therefore the same branch.
Thanks. Actually, these runs being in vault is an oversight, since the Wiki: Vault page states that only 2 basic goals can be accepted to vault: any% and 100%. Recently there was an addition for runs that beat independent levelsets available from the beginning (such as chapters in DOS games). So these runs need to be moved to Moons, which was done to most of the auto-vaulted runs that appeared to have unvaultable goals.
Radiant wrote:
I'm not sure why "glitched" would be considered a separate goal. I would consider goals to be things like "any%", "100%", "pacifist", or "playaround", and each of these could be glitched or non-glitched. In addition to the Chrono Trigger run, it is generally the case that a run with the "heavy glitch abuse" tag will obsolete a run without the tag, instead of forming a separate branch; examples include Shining Soul and Spongebob.
So if this movie is glitched, it can't be vaulted (nor the feedback it got now is enough for Moons).
For what it's worth, it is likely that some or most of the negative feedback is either due to misunderstandings earlier in this thread, or predates Adelikat's post of evidence. After all, people are likely to vote when they first post in a thread, and cannot change it later.
People are asked whether or not they were entertained by the content of the run. Cheetahmen is just not the typeof the gameto enjoy. And when judging a movie on the matter of acceptability, when it appears to have an unvaultable branch, we can't "imagine" when the audience could think, or if it was honest or not. We need to rely on votes and forum posts. I don't see too much enjoyment in forum feedback about this movie either. Finally, if No and Yes votes tie, it means it's not a Moons content.
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I think it was proven that this run is valid in all terms, and must be judges as a real run. But it has a goal most people don't notice. It freaking skips half of the game!
Can someone list the runs that skip half of the game at once and are still any%? I only can remember any%'s that skip some levels from the middle to the next level start. And glitched runs either skip from the middle of the game to its end, or break the gameplay hard enough to deserve a glitched category.
So if this movie is glitched, it can't be vaulted (nor the feedback it got now is enough for Moons). And if it is not, it breaks its own goal in my eyes, since it skips half of the game.
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It most likely means "famous compared to ourselves" :D
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Wait, is it supposed to be the any% category? Or glitched (which it seems to be due to relying on messing with memory)?
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I started thinking of claiming this movie in order to accept it. The reasoning seems interesting, but pretty clear to me. Anyone still thinks it must be rejected?
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AnS wrote:
feos wrote:
Yeah, fine tuning for FPS, doesn't sound too hard when there are already plenty of hardcoded levels.
OK, you do it.
Will look into it in a few days.
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Yeah, fine tuning for FPS, doesn't sound too hard when there are already plenty of hardcoded levels.
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Alright, if it can not be achieved the input way alone (gamepad, reset, power), but it was proven to happen in reality, it is then indeed truly random. So even if we want, we couldn't create a progression of power cycles that would for sure reproduce, say, via nesbot.
There is a bit of a misconception here. What is a blank state? I guess you mean where all relevant registers are 0, which is actually an unlikely event.
Also, no NES TAS starts from a "blank" state. It starts with WRAM set at 0000FFFF. Why is this "blank"?
I mean it starts from what values are on pure power on. When nothing at all is preset, and the initial state is this way equal to that of all the other movies. Blank as in not touched.
And this game, through its complete brokenness, is an exception. You just can NOT start it from the state similar to other movies :) Because it screws up the values by itself.
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Since reset doesn't seem to do the trick properly, and power on does it after a few reties, the only solution that will perfectly fit into "identical fair conditions for all games" concept, is to figure out how exactly power on affects the needed register state, and when it affects it. Like, does it depend on the stage you switch the power at? How much time in is needed? How many times one needs to do it to get the needed state the soonest?
Because yes, if we use some preset values to even start the game, it is a savestate of some kind. At least within the current meaning of things we handle here. But it can not be treated as movies starting from "blank" state, nor can it be treated as a real savestate/SRAM movie.
Even if the game itself is so fucked up it could start from level 5 at the very first launch after it was produced, we would need to put it into the aforementioned laboratory conditions before TASing ("blank" initial state) to make it stand near the existing movies.
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ALAKTORN wrote:
AnS you sound ridiculous to me
Wise argument. Nothing to disprove.
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Radiant wrote:
Now I fully admit I'm not one of the rules-makers on this site, but it strikes me that unilaterally adding a new "guideline" to a wiki page and then using it in this thread the very next day is not a proper method. Is there any agreement to your four points? Because they strike me as contradictory to the rest of the page, as well as unworkable. In particular, your second point is redundant to the fourth, and "requesting star tier" is just not something people do in threads like these. Your third point of asking 100 votes is completely impractical for anything that's not an SNES or Genesis platform game. So by your new guideline, no new games can be starred ever.
So it strikes me that this Jetpack run does meet the normal (older, agreed-upon) criteria for star tier, so I think the star here is fitting, and those four new points that were added to the star page yesterday should be stricken.
It should not strike you, because while guidelines show what kind of movie is generally star worthy, one can't star all movies that satisfy the criteria.
I always refer to the 10% quota made by adelikat. I once started to star all runs that satisfied the criteria in my eyes. It ended with adelikat telling me to destar the ones with the lowest entertainment rating to fit in the quota. I spent some hard hours figuring out what would then really mean a movie must be starred. And there you go, it must be starred if:
- It is an obsoletion of an already starred movie.
- There is huge audience support of starring it.
- If the votes are around 100, it will be considered for starring. But there are exceptions. Most sonic runs get that much votes. But we can't star all of them, only the ones that are on different platforms or represent basically different type of star worthy content.
- If there are just some requests to star a movie, it will be considered for starring. But if it gets low ratings after publication, it will not be starred, because support needs to be consistent between submission voters and publication raters to really rely on.
The problem always seems to be with borderline cases. And with such, one really needs something more than personal opinion of a starman/admin to really star a movie.
Your third point of asking 100 votes is completely impractical for anything that's not an SNES or Genesis platform game. So by your new guideline, no new games can be starred ever.
No wonder you feel stroke. You misinterpret the sense of the points. This one does not say "if there is no 100 votes it will not be starred". It says, 100 votes is the easiest way to prove a movie must be considered for starring.
"requesting star tier" is just not something people do in threads like these.
it strikes me that unilaterally adding a new "guideline" to a wiki page and then using it in this thread the very next day is not a proper method.
There is also IRC where important discussions about orders occur between staff and users. And there are some orders that are still not documented on wiki. It doesn't mean those are invalid, or they only become valid in some time after they are documented. It is about practices and how staff does them.
And yeah, it is in no way "unilateral" if it has adelikat's approval (who is too shy to post about it in threads like this).
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Having such a proof I now support this submission's acceptance.
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Your refuse to discuss what starman worked out in collaboration with the audience. Do whatever you like. I'm tuning out of this movie's fate.
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Are you deliberately ignoring the point about the order a new movie is currently starred by? There are things that help the starman know it needs a star. Having ~100 votes was mentioned by adelikat in IRC many times, and it does work. Needing SOME requests from users to star it also is the necessary reason to star something.
And the guidelines you're now quotting are a year old, they were written before tier system was introduced. Being guidelines means they are no rules, you don't star all movies that meet the criteria. Because ther is the 10% quota, and some feedback threshold (comments/votes/ratings).
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