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Warp wrote:
p4wn3r wrote:
To start off, I heavily object to the name "exhaustive search bot". Just by a simple calculation at the size of the NES RAM and the possibility of inputs, it's pretty obvious that with current technology it's impossible to make a bot that's truly exhaustive. The amount of possibilities is too much, even for a computer to check.
Technically speaking that's not true in all cases, but that conversation would be a bit off-topic in this particular thread. I would write an essay about it, but maybe that would be better in a thread that's more on-topic with that subject.
It's been split into a topic about bots, so it must be perfectly fine to resume this talk :)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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TheProJamer wrote:
Certain Wii games, primarily those focused around you playing as your Mii such as Wii Party and Wii Sports, can have time saved by having custom Miis made in Mii Maker stored in Wii memory (so that the player isn't forced to go out of their way to use guest Miis), and certain categories are only possible with the existence of custom-made Miis. What is the current stance of ruling in regards to this?
I don't think there is any stance.
How does creation of them relate to Dolphin emulator movies (DTM)? You create them separately, share between consoles, and then when you start a movie, Mii is just already present there, and affects gameplay?
Also, in order to replay a DTM, if you don't have the custom Mii used by the author, what do you do to properly replay such a movie?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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They don't waste all the lives they have, they just share them to effectively prevent real game over where both players lose a continue and start the level from scratch. The same thing as here also happens in [983] NES Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III: The Manhattan Project "2 players" by Xipo in 30:30.87, where one player constantly gets game over (to reduce enemy spawns) and borrows lives from the other. So yes, it's not "the game over", lives can be refilled, the game keeps progressing as long as at least one if alive.
Additionally, the game still gets beaten.
Finally, there's no appearance of the string "game over" in the Movie Rules. Arcade continues are mentioned, and even they, as DarkKobold, senior judge at the time, originally stated, may be allowed on the case by case basis (hence "These rules are not strict"). More info here:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=469917#469917
So I don't see any points against what is actually present in this movie.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The dedicated page for this game doesn't tell anything about its end goals, so we can't rely on official requirements regarding game end here. Which options do we have then?
Splitting this into 2 movies doesn't make much sense, because the game has no SRAM, therefore no newgame+ kinda branch. So we either use an emulator savestate, which is outright banned, or play the game twice. Or refuse the second quest altogether, just like with Gosts'n'Goblins.
But unlike in GnG, this game features significant gameplay difference, so beating it the second time showcases more of what it has to offer. Even if the levels are the same, main mechanic is still different. And yes, since the game explicitly recognizes your second completion by stopping itself, we can say that it's an intended stopping point for this game.
Some games allow SRAM or passwords to be used to reach the second quest easier, and maybe the original plan for this game was indeed to provide such a method, but as it is right now, there's no other way to reach the full stop. So we just have to play the game twice.
And drop the branch label.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Dacicus wrote:
LitePC has software that can help eliminate some of the features. I've used the trial version of the 98lite product to install WinME in MAME on ct486. Information is available in this thread; I ran into the same problem as that guy about only being able to have VGA display in 16 colors.
This is really nice! I think the problem you had is only really a problem for MAME, PCem just lets you run later hardware, so that problem isn't there. We can still make a guide how to optimize Windows using this tool, to standardize is as much as we can.
teapartycthulu, thanks for participating!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I updated the OP. tl;dr: P C E M ! ! !
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I tried a few "alternatives" before. We need implementation quality capable of running this one game:
https://yadi.sk/d/abD5JnQG3RpJUw
Can you test it on them?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I have ALL FP versions. Which one doesn't require that?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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[08:32] <feos> usually there's an answer, but it's so fucking hard to find it
[08:45] -> DrD2k9 вошёл в tasvideos
[08:46] <DrD2k9> @feos, you around?
[08:48] <DrD2k9> guess not. I'll catch you later.
[08:48] <- DrD2k9 вышел из tasvideos
[08:48] <Spikestuff> lol
[08:55] <feos> amazing
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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c-square wrote:
Not applicable to the current question, but related: is it allowed to glitch into a cheat/debug mode?
An example I've been thinking of recently is how many Sierra games have a debug or cheat mode. I know it's not permitted to enter the code to use that mode, as the code was never given in the instructions, nor was it ever intended to be part of normal gameplay. But what if you found a glitch that allowed you to take advantage of some of the code in the cheat mode? Is that allowed?
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If it happens without sacrificing entertainment, we'll label both anyway. They use and avoid warps not because it makes walkathon faster, but exactly for entertainment.
To clarify history behind this, warpless walkathon clearly aims for entertainment with its warpless part of the goal. It explicitly avoids warps to be more impressive. So we label it as warpless. Warped walkathon is a counterpart run. We don't care if it's obsoleted or published alongside. We have both, one of them explicitly aims for entertainment, another one is a counterpart, so we label both. Not doing so for any of them would cause questions from those less familiar with the situation. Also, providing more info than needed for those familiar with the situation is less harm than not providing it to the former people.
For City Connection, warpless and warps are not compound goals. Therefore when it comes to labeling, we don't care about speed-orientation. And we don't care about entertainment. We only care about whether it's an internal goal or not.
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That's only because you define it as "aims for fastest speed". It doesn't help with labeling when there are countless scenarios that need to be resolved sensibly.
This example of yours counts as counterpart branches. As long as they both exist, even though one is obsoleted, we label both to communicate the difference between them.
Here's a compound goal example, but it shows the solution:
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Whether it's slower or faster than something, is only a part of the "compound goals" guideline. Right now this can only be checked concerning similarity to existing examples. As in, warp usage is traditionally such a goal that needs to go to the label, and it's considered internal.
For the 2P example, in this particular game you still play alone each time, not "controls several characters at once" kinda movie. So strictly speaking, the amount of players is still the same. And gameplay is exactly the same for each of them. They are virtually the same character playing each level twice.
However, I agree that there's no way to objectively check if the goal we're dealing with is internal or not, and whether it's "internal enough" to get to the label. I'll need a few days to ponder this.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
The codes/cheats were just a way to activate them earlier than would normally be possible in the course of regular gameplay.
For clarification, the game NEVER presents the codes.
This is the key. Since there is a legit way to access them, that legit way will be judged as legit, and the way using the external resources will be considered forbidden.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Regarding the LEGO games: I'm quite familiar with them.
There is a set place in each of the various LEGO games where you can enter codes/cheats to immediately unlock/activate the "extras" as mentioned by thecoreyburton. These codes were not included in any of the game documentation but were instead found included with actual LEGO kits purchased from a store that were the same licensing as the videogame.
However, it is possible to unlock all of these "extras" through normal gameplay by collecting (usually) red lego bricks scattered throughout the game. Once collected, the red brick can then be purchased/activated with in-game currency (LEGO studs) which then allows the player to enable the brick's bonus gameplay effect from the pause menu.
In my opinion, as long as the codes aren't used to acquire these bricks' effects, it's not cheating. It's a collection perk awarded for doing the extra work necessary to collect/purchase them.
This makes it a bit more complicated. If you have to buy some irrelevant merch or other products to learn about these cheats and how to access them, then they are forbidden. If the game present them to you, it's allowed. But now the question rises, whether we require the game to present them to you first, to allow you to use them after?
So far there's no clear ruling on such scenario. Is activating the cheats different for these 2 scenarios? For example, the game shows you the "XYZ" password after you do certain actions. And the same password is printed on your LEGO themed t-shirt's label. If the place where you enter that password is the same regardless, then I think it's allowed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Why are they called cheats anyway?
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arkiandruski wrote:
So for example with the LEGO Star Wars 100% category, buying cheats that you find in the levels is part of the 100% completion, and most of the prices for things you have to buy are balanced to those cheats. If I were to make a movie in that category for that game, or any other game in the series, would I be allowed to turn on the cheats I buy?
Is it mentioned in the manual? What is the usual way to learn about these cheats during normal play?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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JSmith wrote:
ACE and fully arbitrary memory corruption are not permitted in full completion categories, regardless of what sort of advantage they're used for. Lesser memory corruption glitches are allowed, but you can't use them to skip the normal process for collecting items.
There's no practical difference between writing the items into inventory using ACE and successively warping to each item using ACE while also skipping the item jingles.
Yes, the current rules already state that such things are banned from full completion. I just want community's opinion whether we should explicitly ban them for other primary branch goals as well, like the ones I described.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Dimon12321 wrote:
You do the revolution, guys!
Exactly. If only they emulated more modern hardware well.
Also, look at my new sig!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
After watching the movie and reading the entire thread, I've concluded that this thread is undeniable proof that this community likes to argue over nothing.
https://xkcd.com/915/
This is known. We are conversation nerds. It's impossible to be a nerd at TASing and not get professional deformation.
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
I'm only speaking for myself, but many of the most memorable TAS moments I can recall are the moments that made me think the movie was desynching or that the player made some kind of obvious mistake, only to be revealed that it wasn't a mistake at all. A good example would be in the SMB2U TAS on world 4-3 where players like to make Luigi stall in the starting room, which clearly looks like a mistake, only for the viewer to realize later (or even better, not to realize and have to ask about it) that the Birdo's eggs are on a global timer and he needed to wait for it. To me, mastery and perfection are inherently entertaining, and making a fool of the viewer is one of the highest forms of demonstrating mastery.
I also fully agree with this. It just appears that when the audience of any, once obscure, hobby becomes huge enough, the amount of people whose tastes differ increases too. This is life, it's silly to get upset by the very presence of dislikers.
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To be honest, I don't know why we even still have polls. It's been mentioned a few times (not only in this thread), that when a movie is being judged, only posts that represent actual notion are considered. Silent votes are always disregarded. Because really, they don't prove anything at all, therefore we can't use them for anything when judging.
What we care about is posts. And posts make it clear who dislikes or likes your movie. Also posts contain a whole lot of other potentially useful information, we share ideas and come up with solutions. Or argue, like ITT.
I learned one important thing recently. Polls are for things that can be simplified to the point of stupidity. You don't have to invest any serious effort into brainstorming, looking for logical solutions, discussing, generating insights. You just voice your opinion in a simplified form. Since it's a simplified form, it's not helpful.
Often we have complicated situations with tons of factors to consider, and it's not known beforehand if there is even a sensible solution. In order to resolve such open problems gracefully, a lot of mental effort is required. Sharing ideas, digging into non-obvious aspects, evaluating the potential outcomes, all sorts of crazy stuff. We are geeks, we love this, puzzle-solving is in our blood since the day we learned TASing.
Do silent votes help with any of this? No way.
Another problem, votes can be manipulated to provide desirable outcome. You just have to simplify the problem in people's eyes, and provide options that are based on that simplified problem. You can preset people's opinions if you're smart (and mean) enough.
We don't want to rely on that kind of things. This is why we don't believe in silent votes officially. We only believe in helpful discussion. Submission votes are a legacy thing, maybe people want it to be there. I don't think removing its has ever been considered. But it's virtually non-existent when it comes to serious mental effort.
tl;dr: don't mind silent votes, treat them as youtube comments. Because that's what judges do.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
