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We don't blindly disregard the RTA rules either. If they happen to meet our rules, for example we have a note about community agreement, we can use them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I've been gathering info on the details, and here's the actual situation we're facing. Authenticity of the game We always enforced this. We want the image to be good, we disallow hacking it to make it easier (or to otherwise insignificantly change it). We disallow cheat codes. We disallow games that are poorly emulated, as well as in-game tricks and glitches resulting from poor emulation. When a game is not available at all in its original form, we allow its modified version that persisted as long as it doesn't glitch out over unintended console settings (like region). If a game can't be TASed due to various reasons, we may allow tweaking some of its files as long as it doesn't affect gameplay. Authenticity of the environment We also require our emulators to stay true to the original consoles they emulate. This feels implied, because consoles have locked and known once and for all specs, with exception for cases when some quirk was undocumented or documented wrongly. We don't allow emulator settings that don't correspond to something the original consoles had. It's important to note than in cases when a console behaves non-deterministically, we don't require emulators to inherit this aspect, quite the opposite: we enforce determinism even if it didn't exist on the actual console! With that one exception, we don't allow to emulate a hacked console, including its hardware and software it's been officially shipped with. Authenticity of their communication We don't allow NTSC games for CRT TV based consoles to be ran on PAL consoles. We don't allow using BIOS from the wrong region. The type of consoles the game version was released for is preserved while TASing. Exceptions are cases when different console version results in identical gameplay or seemingly improves it, like GBC or SGB do to GB games. Sometimes authenticity is not even remotely possible This is about PC specs. When architecture is open and anyone can release hardware and software for a machine, and when anyone can build a machine that fits their taste and budget, it's impossible to demand authenticity. Because there is no spherical original machine in vacuum, everything is infinite variations. Consoles have locked and sealed specs that may vary a bit, but otherwise it's possible to take a game, run it on original console and compare to how it's emulated. It's impossible to take a PC and check how well a game for it is being emulated to run on PC in general, because there's no the PC. You can only emulate one of the countless components. Then, you may manually overclock your hardware or throttle it as you like and can, to force the games do what you want. On top of that, some operating systems allow modifying games, even DOS could do that easily, and some games explicitly react to file modifications by enabling or disabling some features, or ignore them completely, loading levels in the wrong order or blindly using utterly irrelevant data as legit. So does that mean that for PC games, we should allow anything? Of course not. Probably by chance, but it happened so that over the years we've developed our rules to allow entertaining arbitrary decisions on one hand, and strictly defined, purely speed oriented, boring content on the other. When it comes to something inherently arbitrary, we do our best to disallow it from fastest completion and full completion, from the Vault tier (because those categories are supposed to be strict and obviously legitimate to vast majority of people). When it's hugely entertaining, we may allow non-standard approaches that may look odd or questionable, but we still try to forbid blatant misuse. For example, we allow in-game glitches that actually exist in the original software, but we don't allow injecting unintended game images before or during play. We don't allow pre-setting startup memory to something not known to be possible on authentic hardware. We don't allow Game Genie that goes between the game and the console, intercepting the game code. We don't allow unintended console region. Play can only feel superhuman if we enforce all the original limitations human had from the outside, and overcome our internal human limitations: planning in advance, perfect reaction and absolute precision. Breaking integrity and authenticity breaks the challenge we've been having with the game, as well as the challenge we're having while TASing. It'd also defeat the purpose of watching a TAS: who cares if I can kick my console and jump straight to ending? But we care how perfectly the game software can be played. We limit ourselves to working with software in isolation. Hardware this software is running on we take as is. All the conditions are authentic, only the human that faces them is no more mere human. So what do we do to PC games given unlimited specs variations? Just like with picking the intended console region or the intended BIOS, we can pick intended conditions the games were supposed to be played in. The easiest way to find them out is reading the official docs on recommended PC specs. If that's not enough or not available, we can use modes the games explicitly supply, for example several pre-defined speed modes. If even that is not enough, we may look at some less public resources like game code and deduce intended settings from that. Sticking to intended specs is required, because some games may completely glitch out on things they were never designed for, exactly like some NTSC games glitch out in PAL mode. Some games may be skipping levels over unsupported CPU, others would allow time saving glitches if you overclock the CPU, no one plays 3D games on GPUs that aren't meant to support them and break the gameplay. Breaking the authenticity just because it allows glitches is very very shaky ground. Come on already, should we ban that or not? No one is convinced such stuff should be outright banned. After all, maybe someone can make an entertaining TAS with noclip. But the arbitrary broken nature of unsupported environment doesn't really sound like it should be allowed for Vault. Also, when someone makes a TAS of Doom with overclocked CPU resulting in just 1 minute of very entertaining gameplay, such a setting would compromise the legitimacy of a movie to some people, just like there are people disliking major skip glitches or glitches in general. So if we limit such movies to Moons, we will need to add some labels and classes to them that would prevent any confusion. Just like we always mark movies that start from a save file and play nawgame+. The range of possible scenarios such classes and labels would need to reflect may be huge, so just throw out crazy ideas, brainstorm if you feel like it, we'll participate and review the suggestions. And of course tell me what you think about this post.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Simply avoiding a glitch doesn't mean it'd become full completion. Also the problem is that while both movies got great feedback on forum, the resulting movie rating was somewhat poor regarding entertainment. So neither movie seems to be vaultable, and their entertainment value happens to be borderline, despite of all the posts (this happens every once in a while).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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A couple questions while I'm checking optimality: Does this game have any kind of full completion criterion? How much time does the OoB glitch save? So far doesn't sound like that'd be eligible to the fastest completion category.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I also feel like it's an example of payload improvement in all possible senses, even tho watching Mitch playing ACE'd SMB3 was unforgettable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Right. This is why I think consistent arbitrary framerate is unreproducible on a real machine with vanilla OS and no API interception. You're limited to whatever vsync can give you. Can vsync alone force the GPU to render at consistent rate, given it's capable of rendering that fast? For TASing, fake time is often mandatory for sync, but it doesn't seem mandatory to just replay a movie for a game with no RNG at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Patashu wrote:
I guess the main 'problem' here is that instead of fully simulating a computer and advancing it by a specific amount of cycles (like JPC-RR), we're residing inside of a computer, fooling another program by swapping out the results of system calls, into thinking that certain amounts of time are passing (and other things).
Now I wonder if consistent 1000fps is achievable on a PCem/QEMU level: can you emulate a certain CPU, install a legitimate OS, and then run the game at consistent 1,000,000 fps? Or 0.30000000000000004 fps? Are such precise framerates even possible on real machines with real OSs?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Ну так это не полное описание варианта. Для гуя может быть использован браузер эдектрон. Просто это не слишком афишируется, ибо будет хз когда.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Patashu wrote:
why was there no similar debate for Windows TASes?
I don't think there was a decision not to discuss it back then :D It just happened that either no Windows TAS used translation layer's fake time to simulate crazy framerates, or no one noticed problems for those that did.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Для тех, кто в танке: на генсе сидят все линуксоиды и все тасеры соника. Бизхок не работает под линуксом, в его сеговском ядре нет камхака, а хоковское луа слишком медленное. Если это все решится, генс будет забанен. Вы лучше принципиальные преимущества кроме вышеназванных перечислите. И то пока что это не преимущества, а безрыбье. Мы с Марзо одно время обсуждали запихивание обновленного gpgx в эмуль lsnes с заменой ядра снес. Так как гамбатте делает то же самое, все вполне осуществимо, вот только с сейвами в gpgx действительно все не так радужно. Другой вариант - переезд хока на .netcore, это убирает нужду в моно и дает возможность без потерь функционала работать на линуксе нативно. Хотя луа скоростей генса не достигнет никогда.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If a game doesn't have randomness at all, and all it cares about is videoframe precision inputs (or inputpoll precision inputs), will it be possible to properly TAS it with no fake time?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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What about savestates and frame advance? Are OS time functions involved in these, and if they are, what's their relation to fake and non-fake time?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The thing I'm asking is similar to samplerate. The game is designed to retain the actual speed no matter what, and if you crank up the framerate that libTAS enforces, you just increase the samplerate in terms of frame frequency, without affecting the speed of the action. Like video lag on slow CPU, just reversed. Or imagine shooting a video. You have continuous reality with "infinite samplerate", and your camera films at 60fps by default. That'd be what vsync does in games. The speed of events is the same in both. Drop the filming framerate to 10, same event speed, lower samplerate. This tas is filming reality at 1000fps. Events speeds are unaffected, while precision, samplerate, time resolution increase. The question was, how does libTAS handle both of these entities, event speed and fake OS time? From cwitty's answer, I think it's the same thing as you said: libTAS can be configured which time it would report to the game. Normally, when vsync is on and the hardware runs at, say, 60fps, the game gets the same answer every time: "1/60th of a second has passed since last update". The game then decides how far gameplay was supposed to advance during that time, runs the engine and renders the new frame. As it was said, even with internal vsync off, libTAS still forces consistent framerate whatever we set in the same fashion: it just says "one millisecond has passed", and the game uses that delta to run the engine with this time in mind, and renders a frame that happened sooner than in the first example. Samplerate just increased, consistent delta decreased. Is this correct? Another question, games won't even allow TAS tools if time is not faked? Like, even TASing them with vsync, telling them accurate OS time every time, will we ever be able to TAS them within this workflow?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Co-op is just an N-player mode, Vault can have it if it's the fastest way to beat the game. If drop-in/drop out is faster, use that. Both versions can only be in Vault if they feature more than 50% of gameplay difference (inherently unique levels, bosses, etc).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The last sentence is about games that retain gameplay speed regardless of their rendering or input update rate. The action that takes 1 second with vsync 60fps, takes 1 second with no-vsync 4000fps. There could be glitches, but the games are designed to account for hardware speed and whatnot, game engine makes everything happen at the same speed no matter what. So one thing is being aware of real world 1 second and sticking the general speeds of everything to that. And another thing is when we're telling the game 1 millisecond has passed since the last screen update. 2 different entities, 2 timing approaches. My question is how exactly handling both independently works.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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cwitty, do you happen to know how exactly libTAS is keeping this consistent no-vsync framerate? I asked here and got no response. Also, can any regular hardware or software simulate vsync by enforcing consistent framerate when the game isn't configured to keep it consistent? For example, I see an option to force vsync for 3D apps in the videocard settings, but it doesn't seem to be all that flexible in which framerates it allows.
cwitty wrote:
To boil it down, I feel like there are a few desirable principles the rule should follow: 1) Games should not be allowed to run significantly faster than they would on reasonable contemporary hardware. 2) Games should be allowed to run as fast as they would on reasonable contemporary hardware.
That's the whole point: contemporary hardware is relative! It's impossible to have a clear borderline when we consider the hardware not contemporary to a given game anymore. So there's a point about 3-6 years around the game release date, and whatever was common then was most likely targeted by the devs. Yet again this is also unmeasurable and uncertain, impossible to know or define.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I tried to sync it with manual pauses and failed, then with sleep(10) and failed. After fsvgm777's success with the patch, I boosted wait up to 50 seconds! And it worked! https://i.imgur.com/Y3KVunD.png So it seems to heavily depend on one's PC specs. Keylie and fsvgm can get it to sync with sleep(1), and for the latter it runs at several dozen frames per second. I only get sub 1fps. So manual pauses I was doing were probably too short for the loader thread to properly finish. On an even better PC, would it be possible to not need pauses at all? Like the secondary thread would finish in real time as fast as possible, and optimal right away.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Thanks. Even though a movie without clearing SRAM is apparently possible to make work on console, I don't like the situation anymore. First of all, it's impossible to know the entire range of values that happen in reality. Second, it's impossible to be sure our movie is optimal given the best startup state (assuming we know which one is the best and we also happen to verify it). It's always either "maybe optimal" or "probably possible", or both. Third, when it comes to our definition of Fastest Completion (any%), it requires being sure about things, nothing iffy. This is how Vault works. When we depend on real world inconsistencies in what we're allowed to do in a TAS, we're being inherently uncertain and iffy. Lastly, we want speed competition conditions to be equal for all, that way the competition itself is more legitimate. Clearing the SRAM is the best solution considering the above points, and it also unifies the competition conditions. No dependency on things like, A has a different console and a different SRAM reader, and got better results than B, whose movie is now considered obsolete just because it uses less optimal verified startup state.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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There are a couple other things we should keep in mind. Imagine these are the differences between 2 TASes of the same game version. We've obsoleted movies with way more difference in the past, even across goals. Within the same goals, having obvious differences is even less realistic. On the other hand, back in 2013 we started removing movies from obsoletion chains using the Moons tier principles. Yet the main difference between those movies was that one of them uses major skip glitches like "game end glitch" or "save corruption", while another one avoids it. This resulted in different goals, different movie classes, different TAS features behind them, and vastly different general impression from the 2 movies. How many of these factors do we have here? How many of them are unambiguously defining the branch like "save corruption"/"no save corruption" does? So far I get the impression that these 2 movies are more similar than they should be. The fact that there are tons of Pokemon versions and branches certainly doesn't help. It looks like for the fans, of course these are different. Not sure how many of them think that they are vastly different though. But for non-experts and for general audience? Meh.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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After talking for quite a bit to Nach, here's the problem he has with not limiting framerates at all:
19:10:16 <Nach> making the game rely on OS function time, and then also screwing with that time to allow range max (resolution max?) is extremely questionable

19:35:52 <Nach> it's questionable because you're screwing with the functions the game use and using it in situations it wasn't designed for. The entire topic also begins off with a false premise, which I absolutely not apologize for, nor will I even remotely try to operate in.
So yeah, I'm not a tech guru, and when brainstorming in order to create this thread, the internal technical aspects of this problem weren't known to me. After having learned about it, here's the summary of our talk: For a very long time, the standard the games strive to work well under has been vsync. It's the primary mode to use during play, since it helps with a lot of issues, one of them being inconsistency of hardware specs which only gets worse over time.
18:23:00 <Nach> PC specs games are designed for are typically around a 6 year window surrounding the game design/release period

18:23:27 <Nach> shoving a PC game onto a PC with specs 20 years later, and running it natively that way is crazy

18:24:33 <Nach> even consider the PCs from 3x86 to Pentium era, they all had a "Turbo" button which you could turn off to make the CPU speed more like what you saw on an x86 or 2x86, so you could run old software as they were intended

18:26:50 <Nach> since everyone saw games from the x86 and 2x86 era were misdesigned based on actual clock count, forcing later x86 CPUs to have that turbo option, practically every game since started limiting time based on video and sound output speeds. Games in the last ~15 years even go for a combo due to various differences in hardware and to allow the most precise measurement of time. This is why vsync exists. If you're going to use 20+ year future CPUs and you want it to work right, use vsync (assuming vsync isn't nuts either). Turning off vsync and using 20+ year CPU? Come on...

19:01:26 <Nach> the only reason why games generally even allow turning off vsync is so you can play them on older hardware, which isn't capable of hitting 60 FPS or whatever, or for cases where you have some exotic hardware which doesn't report vsync properly, although in that latter case, there's no telling without vsync will work either
So for games that allow to disable vsync and still run at the same speed regardless, they rely on OS time functions among other things to work properly time-wise. When the game runs at high framerate without vsync, the actual rate it runs at isn't consistent. Hourglass and libTAS replace time-related OS functions and can force the game to run at certain framerate consistently without vsync. While consistency sounds like something good, we're not just modifying OS functionality to make the game TASable and then replay the movie without OS hacks. We're hacking OS functions to affect the way the game works. Even though some time functions report proper time, allowing the game to be aware of real world time and work at consistent speed gameplay-wise regardless, other time functions are replaced and report false time altogether. The suggested solution is limiting all this to vsync and internal options for game speed, since neither involves hacking OS functions and both allow the games to run in the frameworks they target. I can add that this unifies the competition conditions too.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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When deciding on obsoletion chains and branches, we look at both similarities and unique features. And when it's about games that aren't identical, yet somewhat close to each other, we must compare similarities and unique features of the TASes as well as of the games themselves. That's what we do for hacks in Moons. Pokemon games just happen to be so numerous that overlapping content is really unavoidable between certain games, so we kinda have to treat them a bit like we treat hacks.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The way I see it, any emulator configuration and hotkey should be banned during playing. In MAME I can simply erase all hotkeys that access emulator features, and when a TAS is played back that uses them, it desyncs. I only leave game controls enabled, and the run that uses only them works. Don't know how this is set up in dosbox, but we'll try to limit it in the same manner: config prior to tasing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I can;t get this to sync no matter what I do. With the patch, with manual pauses, with libtas 1.3.1 and interim, with touched and untouched game config (the only part changed was fullscreen). The fact that it runs at 1-2 fps on my vm doesn't help. Game version and hash match.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Just letting you know guys, DOSBox inside libTAS has very high chance of being accepted for DOS TASing. And libTAS has input roll like in lsnes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Location: RU
The encode above is of an older WIP. Here's the one for this submission. Link to video
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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